Islamic Terrorism

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-08, 18:07

lazyaficionado wrote:There should be anti-Islamistic propaganda as well (as someone in this topic already proposed).

Isn't that something the entire Western media is already engaged in? What are the outlets which are taking a neutral-to-positive view of Islamism?
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Yasna » 2015-01-08, 18:11

A great discussion about this topic:

link
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Lietmotiv » 2015-01-08, 18:27

lazyaficionado wrote:Varislintu, islamistic ideas are being tolerated by claims they have nothing to do with Islam, for instance. They have something to do with it.



That's what I was saying about Frank-Walter Steinmeier's statement today that "Terrorist attack in France has nothing to do with Islam". I understand that the European politicians are trying to stop islamophobic ideas which are becoming more popular in Europe, but they should call things by their names.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby lazyaficionado » 2015-01-08, 18:33

linguoboy, apparently they fail at that miserably.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-01-08, 18:39

Varislintu wrote:
lazyaficionado wrote:The right thing to do is to admit there is a problem with Islam. No offense to all individual Muslims here but Islamdom as a whole is quite prone to radicalization. Ultra radical imams preach, call for killing of infidels and get away with it while people who point it out get labeled 'racist' and 'intolerant' and get attacked by Muslims.

It's okay if you're Muslim. It's not okay when your reaction to Islamic fundamentalism is just "well that's just radical Muslims, not all Muslims are like that" and you do nothing about it. Thus you only connive at the spreading of the radical views.


So, some people here say "deport them". I don't know about France, but Finland already does this in some cases. But it's far from easy.


It's actually very easy. If you're a foreigner and commit a crime, you get deported.

If you're a citizen and you join a foreign military (be it a state army or an insurgent army) you should lose your citizenship on account of treason. These guys, according to some sources, were trained by jihadists and fought in the Syrian civil war. They simply shouldn't have been allowed back in the country.
Varislintu wrote:What if the country of origin is at war? It can be illegal to deport to such countries.

Fuck'em. Deport anyway.
Varislintu wrote:What if the terrorists are not foreign? The Paris attackers were born in France. Where do you deport people born in France? Their parents' country? What if one parent is from one country, and the other from another country?

-They leave the country to join a war abroad.
-Don't let them in ever again.

Otherwise, treat them like any other citizen and imprison them if they commit a crime.
Varislintu wrote:What if the person has small children, and would take them with them, and they would end up living on the street in the country where they are going because the deportee has no means? For Finland, deporting would in such a case be technically illegal (not necessarily practically, of course).

If the kids have citizenship, don't deport them. Put them up for adoption and indoctrinate them to be good Europeans. Do the same as if their parents were put in jail for life for example. (Is it illegal to imprison people if they have small children?)

If they aren't citizens of the country, then I'm afraid that they should go together with their parent(s), unless the parent(s) decide otherwise. It's a shame, but it's not really the country's responsibility to take care of foreign kids of foreign criminals.

Varislintu wrote:What crimes can lead to deportation? All of them?

Felonies.

Varislintu wrote: Can deportation be pre-emptive?

No. A crime needs to be commited.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Yasna » 2015-01-08, 18:40

Yserenhart wrote:What of everyone else who is undesirable in some or all Western societies? Those Christians who take the Bible literally, should we also deport them? People who "believe" in climate change? People who support GMOs or nuclear power? Poor people, especially those in poverty or on benefits? People with minority political views that are undesirable to most of society, such as anarchists or communists (a couple of days ago a Marxist-Leninist group committed a suicide bombing in Istanbul)?

It's obvious that you can't just deport anyone who is a problem, especially if they were born in the country. It is however viable for foreign-born Islamists and Islamists that join a foreign army/terrorist organization.

Having beliefs contrary to the majority of society is not a crime, even when acting on those beliefs can be. It is absolutely contrary to Western society to criminalise thoughts and beliefs. Indeed, such suggestions only increase the pressures on people that can then make them turn to criminal acts.

Many would argue that it is absolutely contrary to Western society to maintain a mass surveillance apparatus, but Western societies have generally accepted it because it prevents terrorism and saves lives. Slippery slopes are dangerous, but I am so disgusted by the innocent lives being taken all over the world by Islamist terrorists that I think we should carefully take a couple steps onto that slippery slope of trying to rid our countries of the plague of Islamism.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-08, 19:29

Yasna wrote:Slippery slopes are dangerous, but I am so disgusted by the innocent lives being taken all over the world by Islamist terrorists that I think we should carefully take a couple steps onto that slippery slope of trying to rid our countries of the plague of Islamism.

How does this total compare to the number of innocent lives being taken by, say, traffic accidents, workplace shootings, or American drone attacks? Why does it require taking those steps where the others do not?
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-01-08, 19:34

Ludwig Whitby wrote:It's actually very easy. If you're a foreigner and commit a crime, you get deported.


But it's just not that easy. Mainly because a lot of terrorists seem to be born in the West. Immediately as one starts to look at the idea of deportation in practice, and think about it as a solution to this very complicated issue, all kinds of problems appear. It's a bit like ending poverty in Africa or something -- "Well, let's just send them food". And here we are, sending food 50+ years later. Sure, we're "doing" something, but not really solving the problem.

Ludwig Whitby wrote:What if the terrorists are not foreign? The Paris attackers were born in France. Where do you deport people born in France? Their parents' country? What if one parent is from one country, and the other from another country?

-They leave the country to join a war abroad.
-Don't let them in ever again.[/quote]

How do you mean, "they leave"? We deport them and call it that? Okay, fine, but where? Which country's peaceful citizens do we screw over by sending them our own citizens when they become mortally violent?

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Otherwise, treat them like any other citizen and imprison them if they commit a crime.


This is something I can certainly agree with. I guess we all agree that this is the minimum. Coming up with further action is more difficult.

Ludwig Whitby wrote:If the kids have citizenship, don't deport them. Put them up for adoption and indoctrinate them to be good Europeans. Do the same as if their parents were put in jail for life for example. (Is it illegal to imprison people if they have small children?)


Sure, this is a solution. Is it going to come back and bite us, though?

Ludwig Whitby wrote:No. A crime needs to be commited.


I agree, and to an extent I think planning a violent deed should be criminal. We'd have to trust the justice system to be fair and appropriate, though, which is always the weak link.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-01-08, 19:37

Yasna wrote:trying to rid our countries of the plague of Islamism.


The thing is that what we are fighting are ideas. It's a fool's errand to try to rid a country of certain ideas by ridding it of particular people. :hmm: I mean, at least if you expect that to be enough.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Marah » 2015-01-08, 19:43

Varislintu wrote:How do you mean, "they leave"? We deport them and call it that? Okay, fine, but where? Which country's peaceful citizens do we screw over by sending them our own citizens when they become mortally violent?

I don't see how this is a good solution anyway. Let's say someone bombs a place and kills people. You just revoke their citizenship and send them to another country where they would be... free? Aren't they going to come up with other plans for terrorist attacks even if they are abroad? If you have them in prison at least you have them under control. Somewhat.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Yasna » 2015-01-08, 19:45

linguoboy wrote:How does this total compare to the number of innocent lives being taken by, say, traffic accidents, workplace shootings, or American drone attacks? Why does it require taking those steps where the others do not?

Loads is done for traffic accidents already. As for the other two, I am all for making very strict gun laws and ending American overseas military involvement. Are you suggesting we should just learn to live with Islamic terrorism because innocent people die from other things too? No thanks.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Lietmotiv » 2015-01-08, 19:54

All this "what happens to the number of innocent lives being taken" reminds me of the Soviet saying "a у вас негров линчуют"(And you are lynching Negroes).
What happens to the number of innocent lives taken by car accidents? Well, I guess we should accept Islamism and terrorism to be the same thing like car accidents, cancer and even natural death, shouldn't we?

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-01-08, 19:58

Varislintu wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:It's actually very easy. If you're a foreigner and commit a crime, you get deported.


But it's just not that easy. Mainly because a lot of terrorists seem to be born in the West. Immediately as one starts to look at the idea of deportation in practice, and think about it as a solution to this very complicated issue, all kinds of problems appear. It's a bit like ending poverty in Africa or something -- "Well, let's just send them food". And here we are, sending food 50+ years later. Sure, we're "doing" something, but not really solving the problem.

I've already written that this is only the first step. Limiting immigration and deporting the 'baddies' is only the first step. Next would be integration of other immigrants and economic measures that should raise the lowest classes out of poverty and hopelesness many of them are in.
Varislintu wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:What if the terrorists are not foreign? The Paris attackers were born in France. Where do you deport people born in France? Their parents' country? What if one parent is from one country, and the other from another country?

-They leave the country to join a war abroad.
-Don't let them in ever again.

How do you mean, "they leave"? We deport them and call it that? Okay, fine, but where? Which country's peaceful citizens do we screw over by sending them our own citizens when they become mortally violent?

What are you talking about?

I mean European citizens who go to foreign countries and train with foreign armies/terrorist organizations and join their wars. If a European citizens goes abroad and joins a foreign army or a terrorist organization, trains in their boot-camps and figths in their wars, his citizenship should be revoked and he shouldn't be let back into the country.

The gunmen have apparently trained with the jihadists in Syria. They shouldn't have been let back into the country and the peaceful citizens of Syria should have been screwed over.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-01-08, 20:16

Ludwig Whitby wrote:I've already written that this is only the first step. Limiting immigration and deporting the 'baddies' is only the first step. Next would be integration of other immigrants and economic measures that should raise the lowest classes out of poverty and hopelesness many of them are in.


Yes, poverty and hopelessness are forces that drive people to all kinds of extremes and make them vulnerable to toxic ideas. I agree very much with that, and it seems to work so that diminishing those things diminish violent behaviour (that, and eliminating lead in gasoline :P).

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Varislintu wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:What if the terrorists are not foreign? The Paris attackers were born in France. Where do you deport people born in France? Their parents' country? What if one parent is from one country, and the other from another country?

-They leave the country to join a war abroad.
-Don't let them in ever again.

How do you mean, "they leave"? We deport them and call it that? Okay, fine, but where? Which country's peaceful citizens do we screw over by sending them our own citizens when they become mortally violent?

What are you talking about?

I mean European citizens who go to foreign countries and train with foreign armies/terrorist organizations and join their wars. If a European citizens goes abroad and joins a foreign army or a terrorist organization, trains in their boot-camps and figths in their wars, his citizenship should be revoked and he shouldn't be let back into the country.

The gunmen have apparently trained with the jihadists in Syria. They shouldn't have been let back into the country and the peaceful citizens of Syria should have been screwed over.


I was talking about deporting "terrorists born in the West" and you said "They leave the country to join a war abroad", and I didn't understand that you were actually talking about the kind of leaving they've done before, and not the leaving that happens at deporting.

I also agree here that if it's obvious what they were doing abroad, they shouldn't be let back in.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-08, 21:00

Yasna wrote:
linguoboy wrote:How does this total compare to the number of innocent lives being taken by, say, traffic accidents, workplace shootings, or American drone attacks? Why does it require taking those steps where the others do not?

Loads is done for traffic accidents already. As for the other two, I am all for making very strict gun laws and ending American overseas military involvement. Are you suggesting we should just learn to live with Islamic terrorism because innocent people die from other things too? No thanks.

I'm saying we can't always keep innocent people from dying and we definitely have very strong priorities when it comes to which people we let die and how many. More people die in this country from lack of medical insurance than from terrorism of any stripe (Islamist or not), yet we won't adopt universal health care because that would be "socialist". Most recommended gun-control measures fall far short of the kind of measures you're proposing, yet two years after 20 children died at Sandy Hook Elementary, we haven't adopted a single one of them.

What you're recommending is another tradeoff between liberty and security. I'm not categorically opposed to those--I accept traffic laws, for instance (and would be in favour of much stricter ones). But before I surrender my freedoms I want to know it's--to borrow some legal jargon--the least intrusive means of satisfying a societal imperative. Saving innocent lives is a very laudable goal. It should be a top priority for any society. But is targeting Islamists and increasing surveillance of the population as a whole really the "least intrusive" way of achieving it? Why do we apparently care more about the innocents who die in this manner than the many many more who meet their deaths in other ways?
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-08, 21:49

lazyaficionado wrote:linguoboy, apparently they fail at that miserably.

What's your definition of success? 100% effectiveness? What's the last massive international propaganda campaign you can name that achieved that?
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Saim » 2015-01-09, 21:10

Lietmotiv wrote:For me it's strange why Europe supports Israel's enemies in the Middle East, Israel itself being the only country in the region which promotes freedom and European values.


Image

"Freedom and European values"

Lietmotiv wrote:Actually, I am shocked about what happened yesterday. This also seems to be a response to everything France offered these people - a new life, money and so on.


Do you actually know what the life of immigrants in France is like?

We also have to admit that our way of life, our mentality is not compatible to their. It's hard for us to live together, so either we adopt their way of life, either they adopt ours(which is kinda impossible)..


Funny, I know an English guy who says the same thing about Romanians.

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Put them up for adoption and indoctrinate them to be good Europeans.


What the fuck? :?
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-09, 21:22

Saim wrote:"Freedom and European values"
Well, he was half right. After all, what could be more European than Colonialism?
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-01-10, 2:53

IpseDixit wrote:By "these situations" I meant terrorist attacks in general and other atrocious acts like beheading people.

And those simplistic accusations are regularly made in the aftermath of terrorist attacks. Even in this very discussion, you can see people treating Islam as a monolithic bloc, separate, "other," violent, aggressive, threatening, and supportive of terrorism. All of those are views listed in that article I linked to earlier. They are all simplistic accusations.
Levike wrote:If immigrants from a certain country or region tend to make problems,
then just don't allow them in anymore.

Yeah, because there's nothing wrong with generalizing over entire countries or regions, right?
Yasna wrote:And in the West there is no tolerance for violence perpetrated in the name of Christianity, not even from conservative Christians.

Oh, really?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA_zqfE8DYY
The same cannot be said for Islam. To give you a taste of Islamists' appetite for violence, according to a 2013 Pew study, a majority of Muslims in Egypt (not the most radical Muslim country) believe that apostasy and adultery should be punished with death.

Before Westerners began colonizing the rest of the world, how did they believe that apostasy or adultery should be punished? Or, for that matter, petty theft?
Ludwig Whitby wrote:From what I've read NF wants to limit immigration (especially from North Africa), doesn't want to automatically give out French passports to citizens of former colonies (such as Algeria) and would deport foreigners who commit any crimes (especially terrorism).

With such policies, it would be unlikely that these guys would even be in France. They wouldn't have had French citizenship. And the one that had already been arrested for terrorism would've been deported.

Not necessarily.
IpseDixit wrote:
Marah wrote:But Christian's beliefs do limit your rights in the first place. Think of abortion, euthanasia, marriage, divorce, etc for instance.


Many people have fought against that and in any case two wrongs don't make a right.

Many people have fought against the limitation of rights in countries with Muslim majorities, too.
Lietmotiv wrote:Today, Germany's Minister of FA stated that the attacks in France have nothing to do with Islam. He could, however, add that they do have something in common with Islamism.

Isn't that pretty obvious?

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Yasna » 2015-01-10, 3:50


That's the best you can come up with? Compare it with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamic_terrorist_attacks

I rest my case.

Before Westerners began colonizing the rest of the world, how did they believe that apostasy or adultery should be punished? Or, for that matter, petty theft?

So basically you're saying that Islam is stuck in the middle ages. I agree.

Isn't that pretty obvious?

Apparently not to everyone. Linguoboy is questioning it over in the International Relations thread.
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