Islamic Terrorism

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IpseDixit

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-01-08, 13:35

What do you mean when you say "come from abroad"? Do you mean people who are born abroad or those who are born in the country?


Both.

I'm suggesting surveillance to prevent terrorist attacks as much as possible. And if people plan terrorist attacks you put them in jail, which is safer than just revoking their citizenship and then expelling them.


Surveillance is what we've been doing since 9/11... All it did was turn many countries into semi-police states but didn't prevent terrorist attacks.

Who's to say they are not going to coordinate terrorist attacks from abroad?


I suppose it would be immensely more difficult if they didn't have any sort of support from Islamists inside the country.

So? People who contribute to the economy do create jobs indirectly as well.


I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Last edited by IpseDixit on 2015-01-08, 13:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Lietmotiv » 2015-01-08, 13:39

Another idea will be to ban any IslamiSTIC organization, symbols (let's say Islamic State flag, just like banning fascist symbols, for instance) cooperate with Israel and also change the politics realted to Israel (maybe Israel can help with know-how in this matter). Also, try to start an anti-islamISTIC propaganda to avoid other people from embracing these ideas.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Marah » 2015-01-08, 13:41

IpseDixit wrote:Surveillance is what we've been doing since 9/11... All it did was turn many countries into semi-police states but didn't prevent terrorist attacks.

Don't you think it prevented a shitload of terrorist attacks from happening but it's just that you don't hear about it? It's often nipping them in the bud.

I suppose it would be immensely more difficult if they didn't have any sort of support from Inslamists inside the country.

Well, there are always gonna be islamists in the country. And with modern communication coordinating terrorist attacks from abroad is feasible. It's better to have them in jail than having them abroad and not knowing what they are up to imo.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Well, say there are a 1000 qualified immigrants who come to your country and have a job. They are going to need to have their hair cut, they will buy bread, cars, etc. To support the growing demand more jobs will be created in these fields, say 10 more barbers, 3 florists, 2 car salesmen, etc. Not to mention that they pay taxes and contribute positively to our pension system which definitely needs it.
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IpseDixit

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-01-08, 13:53

Marah wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:Surveillance is what we've been doing since 9/11... All it did was turn many countries into semi-police states but didn't prevent terrorist attacks.

Don't you think it prevented a shitload of terrorist attacks from happening but it's just that you don't hear about it? It's often nipping them in the bud.


The head of NSA says 50 and I wouldn't say he's an impartial source. Do they justify NSA recent scandal and Guantanamo? Also considering that a shitload of others actually occured.

How better could have they done with other methods?

Well, say there are a 1000 qualified immigrants who come to your country and have a job. They are going to need to have their hair cut, they will buy bread, cars, etc. To support the growing demand more jobs will be created in these fields, say 10 more barbers, 3 florists, 2 car salesmen, etc. Not to mention that they pay taxes and contribute positively to our pension system which definitely needs it.


1000 immigrants don't change anything in the economy. And it's very difficult to create new jobs when you are in a downturn, in a credit crunch, in a deflation and when your country is adopting pro-cyclical austerity measures.

Moreover don't you think it would actually be more just to look among the 10.5% of French unemployed to see if there are people with the same qualifications?
Last edited by IpseDixit on 2015-01-08, 14:15, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby lazyaficionado » 2015-01-08, 13:58

Lietmotiv wrote:I'm not against multicultural states - For example, in terms of multiculturalism, USSR was the best example

But the USSR wasn't. There were problems deep down but they were concealed by the state propaganda. The result was bloody -- nationalistic wars on the periphery of the Soviet Union in the late 80's -- beginning of 90's; also the two Chechen wars etc.

The same thing is going on in Europe now -- the leftist elites try to hide deep problems with their multiculturalist agenda. And many people -- like in this thread -- even though with their best intentions, believe it.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Lietmotiv » 2015-01-08, 14:03

lazyaficionado wrote:
Lietmotiv wrote:I'm not against multicultural states - For example, in terms of multiculturalism, USSR was the best example

But the USSR wasn't. There were problems deep down but they were concealed by the state propaganda. The result was bloody -- nationalistic wars on the periphery of the Soviet Union in the late 80's -- beginning of 90's; also the two Chechen wars etc.


In terms of building a good society in which live people of different nation, USSR still is the best example - even 24 years after its collapse, I still talk to people from different ex-republics, and still feel no mentality/cultural differences.
What happened on the periphery of the Soviet Union in the beginning of the 90s is a result of USSR's collapse/Cold War that we lost/ America's influence up to some point(Chechnia). Otherwise, there were no such conflicts inside USSR, nor terrorism.

The same thing is going on in Europe now -- the leftist elites try to hide deep problems with their multiculturalist agenda. And many people -- like in this thread -- even though with their best intentions, believe it.


That's true. Today, Germany's Minister of FA stated that the attacks in France have nothing to do with Islam. He could, however, add that they do have something in common with Islamism.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-01-08, 14:18

lazyaficionado wrote:
Lietmotiv wrote:I'm not against multicultural states - For example, in terms of multiculturalism, USSR was the best example

But the USSR wasn't. There were problems deep down but they were concealed by the state propaganda. The result was bloody -- nationalistic wars on the periphery of the Soviet Union in the late 80's -- beginning of 90's; also the two Chechen wars etc.

The same thing is going on in Europe now -- the leftist elites try to hide deep problems with their multiculturalist agenda. And many people -- like in this thread -- even though with their best intentions, believe it.

Deleted my post. It leads away from the topic at hand.
Last edited by Ludwig Whitby on 2015-01-08, 14:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Johanna » 2015-01-08, 14:41

IpseDixit wrote:
Preaching hate is preaching hate, regardless of who's doing it; imam, priest, politician, random person in the street. All can contribute to radicalisation.

No it's not. Islamism is against the West. Far-right parties are trying to defend the West (with arguable means sometimes).

To me, being Western is to be democratic, granting your citizens certain basic rights, and having your country's attitudes moving in a progressive direction in general.

Those parties are the opposite of that, they're conservative to the point of wanting to go back in time, only really care about the majority population and aren't that fond of ethnic minorities, they're usually anti-LGBT, anti-feminist (we're not talking about people misunderstanding feminism, or feeling left out but still wanting equality, we're talking about people with a very old-fashioned view of women), and against freedom of religion, freedom of speech and other such basic democratic rights.

In short, these parties are anti-democratic. Sure, some might think that a curtailed democracy is OK, where only 'desirable' views should be allowed to be publicly expressed and 'enemies of the nation' should be imprisoned, but you can vote and there is more than one party, and as long as you vote for an approved one you won't be punished. But some do want to turn their country into an actual dictatorship.

They don't try to defend the West, not really. They may think they do, but in reality they try to make it into something that has much more in common with the countries they despise the most, and they don't even realise.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby lazyaficionado » 2015-01-08, 14:52

Ludwig, it's true only for the early 20's USSR. If the tensions were eradicated how they did they manage to arise again after 70 years of communist rule? Take Karabakh for example: there were always problems and the first blood was shed in 1988 -- it was before the fall of the SU and at that time no one could even think that the SU was going to die soon. Also, how about deporation of Chechens, Ingushs, and Crimean Tatars in as early as 1930's right to the steppes of Kazaqstan? What about anti-semitism silently approved by the authorities?

No, USSR wasn't multicultural -- it was unicultural, the only culture being State-approved socrealist one.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Lietmotiv » 2015-01-08, 14:59

lazyaficionado wrote:No, USSR wasn't multicultural -- it was unicultural, the only culture being State-approved socrealist one.


Well, sorry for starting this conversation about USSR, but, in my opinion, USSR was a success story. Even if I was a child when it collapsed, I still notice no cultural/linguistic barrier when speaking to people from Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan and so on (that's why sometimes it's difficult to say even after an hour of speaking, if the person is from Moscow, Minsk or Astana). Especially one feels this when living abroad, among other cultures. You can't say the same thing about different people living in the same European country.

Regarding the actions which took place in many cities, their motto was "for freedom of speech" "Press freedom", but how about "we are against killing innocent people in the name of a religion?". Or is this not politically correct?

IpseDixit

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-01-08, 15:00

@Johanna: when I wrote that post I had in mind mainly the FN, PVV, the Northern League and UKIP which don't have much to do with what you said.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby lazyaficionado » 2015-01-08, 15:12

Johanna, parties you described are extremely far-right. They would never win many votes. And if they had terrorist organizations within them, someone would start 'Extreme right terrorism' thread.

But the thing is, all that you've written applies to radical Islam too. And they are much more active in spreading their ideology, much more aggressive and they do actually have terrorist organizations.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Lietmotiv » 2015-01-08, 15:13

A good article describing what happens in France, and not only (also Belgium, Germany, UK and so on).
"Muslims segregated from French society in growing Islamist mini-states"

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... blem-out-/

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Marah » 2015-01-08, 15:23

IpseDixit wrote:The head of NSA says 50 and I wouldn't say he's an impartial source. Do they justify NSA recent scandal and Guantanamo? Also considering that a shitload of others actually occured.

That's probably just the one's that where going to happen not the ones they nipped in the bud. But it's a lot still. As to your question maybe the number of lives that have been saved should also be considered.

How better could have they done with other methods?

You mean revoking citizenship and expelling them?

1000 immigrants don't change anything in the economy. And it's very difficult to create new jobs when you are in a downturn, in a credit crunch, in a deflation and when your country is adopting pro-cyclical austerity measures.

That's just an example that was meant to be extended to a macroeconomic level.

Moreover don't you think it would actually be more just to look among the 10.5% of French unemployed to see if there are people with the same qualifications?

A dichotomy isn't necessary. Sometimes you have people who have the qualifications but aren't in the area so it's not possible for them to take the job. There are jobs that unemployed people don't want to do. There are places where certain jobs are needed. All things being equal I think an employer would prefer hiring someone who is from their country but sometimes they have no choice or a foreigner is a better match for the company.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-08, 15:59

IpseDixit wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:It's not just about commiting crimes though, there are also public figures like certain spiritual leaders who may never commit a crime but that create an atmosphere of hatred and that incite to or justify violent actions and crimes.

You mean like National Front politicians?

No. I mean like Islamists. How ridiculous of you to even compare the two.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Johanna » 2015-01-08, 16:09

lazyaficionado wrote:Johanna, parties you described are extremely far-right. They would never win many votes. And if they had terrorist organizations within them, someone would start 'Extreme right terrorism' thread.

But the thing is, all that you've written applies to radical Islam too. And they are much more active in spreading their ideology, much more aggressive and they do actually have terrorist organizations.

We've got a couple of those parties in Sweden, one (the 'mildest' one) is currently in our parliament and got 13% of the votes in the last election, and since then they've gained in popularity. Sure, they say they're not that bad when you ask them, but when you read their programme, it's pretty obvious that democracy isn't their strong suit and that they are quite racist. They also have a 'tail' that threatens and attacks people who dare to speak out against them, some of those attacks are planned on sites that high-ranking members of this party support, but the party itself maintains just enough distance that it can't be seen as liable, and even though its representatives are very adamant that it's not the party attacking people physically, they never condemn those actions either.

That was kind of my point, those parties are a Western version of radical islamist movements, but they don't realise it.

About terrorist organisations, I'm much more worried about our far right than any islamist groups, the latter have had one single failed attack, and even then it was a lone guy acting without any kind of actual support and failing, while the former have attacked a lot of people of the 'wrong' skin colour or people they disagree with politically. In the Nordic Countries we've also had lone lunatics from the far right actually killing a lot of completely innocent people pretty recently, in Sweden there was Peter Mangs, and I think we all know what happened 3.5 years ago in Norway.

I'm even worried personally since I am one of those 'enemies of the nation', accepting and even endorsing my brother's Eritrean fiancée and their kids, not to mention that I'm a feminist, an anti-racist, pro-LGBT and belong to a sexual minority. I'm several times more likely to come across a right-wing sympathiser that wants to 'teach me a lesson' or even kill me, than a radical islamist that wants to do the same.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-01-08, 16:24

lazyaficionado wrote:The right thing to do is to admit there is a problem with Islam. No offense to all individual Muslims here but Islamdom as a whole is quite prone to radicalization. Ultra radical imams preach, call for killing of infidels and get away with it while people who point it out get labeled 'racist' and 'intolerant' and get attacked by Muslims.

It's okay if you're Muslim. It's not okay when your reaction to Islamic fundamentalism is just "well that's just radical Muslims, not all Muslims are like that" and you do nothing about it. Thus you only connive at the spreading of the radical views.


Okay, but the way I feel is that this is sort of the obvious starting point of all discussion of this topic. This is the easy part. Not all Muslims are bad. Hatred and violence is bad. Okay.

The much more difficult question is what to do about it. People here have claimed that islamistic ideas or violence (I'm unclear if both) are being tolerated. Tolerated how? Violence and inciting violence are already illegal. In some countries even plotting violence is illegal. European leaders have condemned islamistic acts of terror. Ordinary people in France and around Europe are busy condemning the violence with vigils and peaceful protests right now. Probably all European countries by now have special counter-terrorism forces, on behalf of and by courtesy of us tax payers. I don't exactly understand what kind of part of society is giving blanket tolerance towards islamic violence. Are there somewhere people who would not want the Paris attackers, if and when caught, to go to prison or receive any kind of punichment? Because we have to 'understand' them? I think those people, if they exist, are such a marginal group that we can carry on the discussion without debating their weird ideas.

So, some people here say "deport them". I don't know about France, but Finland already does this in some cases. But it's far from easy. What if the country of origin is at war? It can be illegal to deport to such countries. What if the terrorists are not foreign? The Paris attackers were born in France. Where do you deport people born in France? Their parents' country? What if one parent is from one country, and the other from another country? What if the person has small children, and would take them with them, and they would end up living on the street in the country where they are going because the deportee has no means? For Finland, deporting would in such a case be technically illegal (not necessarily practically, of course). What if the terrorist parents come from, say, Austria? Do they get dumped there? When do we decide if the country of origin is "Western" enough that we don't want to dump them there? What crimes can lead to deportation? All of them? Can deportation be pre-emptive? In that case, how do we decide what is serious enough to call for pre-emptive deportation? Etc, etc.

I think one of the reasons the West struggles with Islamic terrorism isn't because we "tolerate" it, but because it's bloody difficult to react to in a way that is fair, consistent and non-counter-productive.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Lietmotiv » 2015-01-08, 16:36

Varislintu wrote: Are there somewhere people who would not want the Paris attackers, if and when caught, to go to prison or receive any kind of punichment? Because we have to 'understand' them? I think those people, if they exist, are such a marginal group that we can carry on the discussion without debating their weird ideas.

I guess many Muslims silently(or not) approve the attacks, thinking "they deserve it, they shouldn't make fun of our religion".

What if the person has small children, and would take them with them, and they would end up living on the street in the country where they are going because the deportee has no means?

Well, this is indeed a difficult question, but if this avoids innocent deaths of other people, I guess a child on the street in the deportee's country isn't such a big problem.



I think one of the reasons the West struggles with Islamic terrorism isn't because we "tolerate" it, but because it's bloody difficult to react to in a way that is fair, consistent and non-counter-productive.

On the other hand it's a nonsense to do nothing, thinking these actions can be unfair. It's a matter of National Security.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-01-08, 16:47

Lietmotiv wrote:
Varislintu wrote: Are there somewhere people who would not want the Paris attackers, if and when caught, to go to prison or receive any kind of punichment? Because we have to 'understand' them? I think those people, if they exist, are such a marginal group that we can carry on the discussion without debating their weird ideas.

I guess many Muslims silently(or not) approve the attacks, thinking "they deserve it, they shouldn't make fun of our religion".


Yes, but they are not part of the "West" that is accused of tolerating too much.

Lietmotiv wrote:
What if the person has small children, and would take them with them, and they would end up living on the street in the country where they are going because the deportee has no means?

Well, this is indeed a difficult question, but if this avoids innocent deaths of other people, I guess a child on the street in the deportee's country isn't such a big problem.


If it's okay in that case, then I fear that what will happen is that people will find more and more ways and situations in which it's not a big problem to act counter to official Western values.

Lietmotiv wrote:On the other hand it's a nonsense to do nothing, thinking these actions can be unfair. It's a matter of National Security.


Do you mean "nothing" here as "not deporting"? Or do you have other solutions that are not being done right now?
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby lazyaficionado » 2015-01-08, 17:34

Johanna these things should be dealt with separately. There are extremists to almost every (political) idea. It's not "it's okay to be a radical muslim as there are far right extremists", it's "it's unokay to be a radical muslim OR a far right extremist".
I live in a country with the largest Muslim population in Europe. We've got more Muslims than there are people in Sweden. And thank god that most of them are mild, secularized Muslims. But there are constant reports about radicalization of Islam in Tatarstan and Bashkortostan. There are constant terror acts commited by Salafite ultra-radicals. Then there's an influx of Muslim immigrants from Central Asia who are also very prone to be radicalized due to their being very poor and having to work in shit conditions. So yeah, utlra-radical Islam concerns me a lot.

Varislintu, islamistic ideas are being tolerated by claims they have nothing to do with Islam, for instance. They have something to do with it.

EDIT: as to what to do, apart from post-factum investigations after violent acts and locking up imams who preach hate, there should be laws that forbid setting up of the Sharia state. Like 'what? Wuppertal sharia police? You're looking for 25 maybe 20 years here guys'. There should be anti-Islamistic propaganda as well (as someone in this topic already proposed).


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