Islamic Terrorism

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-07-17, 21:40

Yasna wrote:Do women around the world not welcome others around the world vocally rejecting sexism?

I know the question is rhetorical (and the answer is off-topic for this thread), but FYI there's a huge conversation happening within feminism about how mainstream antisexism at best ignores and at worse compounds the oppression faced by women of colour. So the matter is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be, since the answer depends crucially on which women, which others, what kinds of sexism, and what form the rejection takes.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-07-17, 22:08

Saim wrote:I actually do agree that it's silly to just repeate this has nothing to do with Islam and they're not real Muslims.

Well, sure, it's more complicated than just that. I just think it's also more complicated than the opposite.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Saim » 2016-07-17, 22:32

vijayjohn wrote:
Saim wrote:I actually do agree that it's silly to just repeate this has nothing to do with Islam and they're not real Muslims.

Well, sure, it's more complicated than just that. I just think it's also more complicated than the opposite.


Of course: your reaction is nuanced. It's the knee-jerk, simplistic responses of many non-Salafi Muslims and progressive white people that I'm worried about.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Varislintu » 2016-07-18, 9:32

md0 wrote:The duty we have to other groups' struggle is to show solidarity and republish their message. Not to be arm-chair activists who sit down and write position texts about the politics of a society they haven't interacted with even once


Yes. Ever since having the budding realisation of this a few years ago, it only makes more and more sense to me with time.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Yasna » 2016-07-23, 15:29

vijayjohn wrote:What, on some forum for language nerds almost none of them look at or probably even know about?

That's funny, I never remember you being so narrow-minded when it came to people on this forum showing support for combating racism or sexism. I guess the rules change when it's a cause you are uncomfortable with, huh?

Not always, because the ways that other people around the world vocally reject racism and sexism often also include either a poor understanding of the initial problem or a rejection of other aspects of their identity, including the Cypriot example md0 mentioned.

True, but personally anyway I try to stick with just amplifying the ideas of Muslim reformers like Maajid Nawaz, Raheel Raza, and Mohammed Amin, and avoid getting into local politics that are beyond my understanding.

You also have actual Muslims who are completely against terrorism saying this.

And they are also completely wrong.

And the fact that it's specifically Islam that's being used as an excuse really doesn't seem particularly relevant to me in a world where any religion is used as an excuse for violence, even Buddhism (e.g. Wirathu in Burma, the Bodu Bala Sena in Sri Lanka).

Doesn't seem relevant to you? Have you ever compared the scope of Islamist terrorism to the scope of Buddhist terrorism in this day and age, despite there being huge populations of both Muslims and Buddhists in the world, and both populations having been the subject of severe oppression by colonial powers?

I'm not sure who's denying that Islam is being used as an excuse for violence (note that pointing out that Islam is being used as an excuse is NOT the same thing as equating terrorism with Islam),

It is so utterly obvious that Islam is more than just an excuse. Just look at the flip side of the coin. When a Christian terrorist bombs an abortion clinic, do you hear anyone on the left saying things like "he would have murdered people anyway and extremist Christianity just happened to be his excuse for doing it"? Of course not! It's absurd!


For the record, here is an example of a terror attack by someone with (presumably) a Muslim background, but that apparently had nothing to do with Islam.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-07-23, 16:22

Yasna wrote:That's funny, I never remember you being so narrow-minded when it came to people on this forum showing support for combating racism or sexism. I guess the rules change when it's a cause you are uncomfortable with, huh?

The difference is that there are also people on this forum who defend racism and sexism. I don't see anyone here defending someone who murdered their own sister, therefore I don't really see the point of defending people who oppose that here because who exactly am I defending them against anyway?
True, but personally anyway I try to stick with just amplifying the ideas of Muslim reformers like Maajid Nawaz, Raheel Raza, and Mohammed Amin, and avoid getting into local politics that are beyond my understanding.
You also have actual Muslims who are completely against terrorism saying this.

And they are also completely wrong.

"I just repeat the same propaganda line over and over again without actually bothering to try understanding anything beyond that."
Doesn't seem relevant to you? Have you ever compared the scope of Islamist terrorism to the scope of Buddhist terrorism in this day and age, despite there being huge populations of both Muslims and Buddhists in the world, and both populations having been the subject of severe oppression by colonial powers?

Sure. Have you also noticed that no country with a Buddhist majority happens to have more oil than the US?
It is so utterly obvious that Islam is more than just an excuse. Just look at the flip side of the coin. When a Christian terrorist bombs an abortion clinic, do you hear anyone on the left saying things like "he would have murdered people anyway and extremist Christianity just happened to be his excuse for doing it"? Of course not! It's absurd!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_a9EDSYiKw
"He lowered the number of people working on right-wing terrorism from 25 people to one person at the Department of Homeland Security. The guy who used to run the department is a Republican; he said, 'What're you doin'? We got a lot of right-wing terrorists in this country! Some of them happen to be Christian.'"

I don't think you'll deny that Cenk Uygur is on the left, but that's his point in this video, too. He isn't saying Muslim terrorists are somehow better than Christian terrorists or that there is some kind of fundamental problem with Christianity; he's saying only Muslim terrorists are prosecuted for terrorism.
Last edited by vijayjohn on 2016-07-23, 20:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-07-23, 17:04


Except that he appears to have targeted foreigners, particularly Muslim foreigners. (Of the nine killed, three were Turks, three were Kosovars, and one was Greek.) Authorities say that he studied the crime of and was inspired by Breivik (note the date he chose); he can be heard in footage identifying himself as "German". Given all that, characterising it as "not political" seems a curious choice.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Car » 2016-07-23, 19:07

linguoboy wrote:

Except that he appears to have targeted foreigners, particularly Muslim foreigners. (Of the nine killed, three were Turks, three were Kosovars, and one was Greek.) Authorities say that he studied the crime of and was inspired by Breivik (note the date he chose); he can be heard in footage identifying himself as "German". Given all that, characterising it as "not political" seems a curious choice.

Your source for this claim? Based on what I read/ watched so far, your choice sounds curious. You do realise that it is one of the city's poorest quarters and as such has a relative high percentage of migrants, which should be even higher among the young people he targeted.

Zeit has another theory and considering their political position, they'd be more likely to point out anti-immigrant motives.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby md0 » 2016-07-23, 19:12

and one was Greek.)


A Greek Muslim from Rhodope at that.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Car » 2016-07-23, 19:22

Some background text on that video (sorry, German only):
http://www.n24.de/n24/Nachrichten/Panor ... mpfte.html
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-07-23, 19:22

Car wrote:Your source for this claim?

For which claim in particular? The identity of the victims? I've read those breakdowns in multiple sources. That he was influenced by Breivik? That came from official government spokespersons. That he yelled out "Ich bin Deutscher!"? Again, multiple sources. I'm curious what articles you're reading in which these facts are not mentioned.

Car wrote:You do realise that it is one of the city's poorest quarters and as such has a relative high percentage of migrants, which should be even higher among the young people he targeted.

You do realise that he had a choice of quarters and a choice of victims once he got there? He travelled 4 km from Maxvorstadt to get there. Why? There were plenty of closer places he could've gone instead. The percentage of foreigners in Moosach (29.6%) is only marginally higher than that for Munich as a whole (26.8%). What are the odds that at least 7 of the 9 killed (77.7%) would be foreigners based on random chance?

Car wrote:Zeit has another theory and considering their political position, they'd be more likely to point out anti-immigrant motives.

Thanks for the link. I'll read it when I have a bit more time.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Car » 2016-07-23, 19:34

linguoboy wrote:
Car wrote:Your source for this claim?

For which claim in particular? The identity of the victims? I've read those breakdowns in multiple sources. That he was influenced by Breivik? That came from official government spokespersons. That he yelled out "Ich bin Deutscher!"? Again, multiple sources. I'm curious what articles you're reading in which these facts are not mentioned.

The claim that he targeted (Muslim) foreigners. They also mentioned Winnenden as an inspiration, not just Breivik. How does that fit the narrative?

Car wrote:You do realise that it is one of the city's poorest quarters and as such has a relative high percentage of migrants, which should be even higher among the young people he targeted.

You do realise that he had a choice of quarters and a choice of victims once he got there? He travelled 4 km from Maxvorstadt to get there. Why? There were plenty of closer places he could've gone instead. The percentage of foreigners in Moosach (29.6%) is only marginally higher than that for Munich as a whole (26.8%). What are the odds that at least 7 of the 9 killed (77.7%) would be foreigners based on random chance?


Read the Zeit link. He used to live there:
War es Rache, die ihn zur Waffe greifen ließ?

Die Schule, auf die Ali S. ging, liegt nur eine U-Bahnstation von seinem Wohnhaus entfernt in einer grünen Seitenstraße. S. besuchte hier die Mittelschule. In der Nähe der Schule spielen Jugendliche Fußball. Einer von ihnen, Marco, ist mit S. zur Schule gegangen. Er ist ein Jahr jünger als er. Als er die Handyvideos von der Tat im Netz gesehen habe, habe er S. gleich erkannt und es nicht glauben können. S. sei in seiner Wahrnehmung ein "ruhiger Kerl" gewesen, sagt er. Auch andere Mitspieler kennen S., wenngleich auch nicht sonderlich gut. Sie beschreiben ihn als Jungen, der gerne Computerspiele wie den Ego-Shooter Counterstrike gespielt habe und der es damit vielleicht sogar ein wenig übertrieben habe. Einige meinen gehört zu haben, dass S. in der Schule gemobbt worden sei. Ganz genau wissen sie es aber auch nicht.


Further down, they also give a possible explanation for the Hartz IV part:
Für diese These spricht, dass S. am Freitag – kurz vor seiner Tat – einen Facebook-Eintrag gepostet hatte, in dem er versprach, andere Jugendliche bei McDonalds am Olympiazentrum zum Essen einzuladen. Das Schnellrestaurant ist ein Treffpunkt für Jugendliche im Viertel Moosach, einem der ärmsten der Stadt. S. ging bis vor wenigen Jahren in Moosach auf eine andere Schule, bevor die Eltern mit ihm in die besser situierte Maxvorstadt zogen. Die alte Schule liegt nicht weit vom Olympiazentrum entfernt. Eine These könnte sein, dass S. noch eine Rechnung mit seinen alten Mitschülern offen hatte. In einem Handy-Video, das kurz nach den ersten Schüssen entstand, betont S. zumindest, er sei in einem Hartz-IV-Viertel groß geworden.


Interestingly enough, some of the German media immediately called him "David S." (and some still do) while apparently, the British press used "Ali" plus written out last name...

Edit: I have yet to see the complete video, but in a Welt article, they said that the other guy in the video called him a "Kanake" ("wog") and that he responded to that that he's German.

Actually, I found a more complete video with a transcription:
http://www.focus.de/politik/videos/nach ... 55674.html

So the "I'm German" is a reaction to "fucking wogs".
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-07-23, 20:30

That article ends with a caution, however, citing this passage from Langman:
These are not ordinary kids who were bullied into retaliation. These are not ordinary kids who were played too many video games. These are not ordinary kids who just wanted to be famous. These are simply not ordinary kids....There's a lot that we don't know.

Revenge is a tempting motivation because it's simple and comprehensible. Which of us hasn't fantasised about it before? But motives are complex and young people in particular are heavily influenced by their environment. That's why I'm not comfortable saying less than 24 hours after an incident like this "there's no political motivation". All we can really say is that there's no obvious political motivation. That's a statement intended less to be definitive about the nature of the crime than to calm a skittish population fearful this was another Bataclan.

(For comparison, six weeks after the Pulse Nightclub shooting in Orlando and we still haven't established exactly what the shooter's motivation was there. Revenge theories were popular here, too--including an outlandish claim that he was getting back at an HIV+ Puerto Rico man who he had sex with--but the FBI investigation has found nothing to support them. But, again, it's not a coincidence that he choose to target the population that he did or that he named the groups he did when talking about what he'd done.)
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Car » 2016-07-23, 20:53

linguoboy wrote:That article ends with a caution, however, citing this passage from Langman:
These are not ordinary kids who were bullied into retaliation. These are not ordinary kids who were played too many video games. These are not ordinary kids who just wanted to be famous. These are simply not ordinary kids....There's a lot that we don't know.

Revenge is a tempting motivation because it's simple and comprehensible. Which of us hasn't fantasised about it before? But motives are complex and young people in particular are heavily influenced by their environment. That's why I'm not comfortable saying less than 24 hours after an incident like this "there's no political motivation". All we can really say is that there's no obvious political motivation. That's a statement intended less to be definitive about the nature of the crime than to calm a skittish population fearful this was another Bataclan.

I can agree with that.

BTW: Did you see my edit?
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-07-23, 20:54

Car wrote:BTW: Did you see my edit?

I didn't. Thanks.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Yasna » 2016-07-26, 15:42

vijayjohn wrote:The difference is that there are also people on this forum who defend racism and sexism. I don't see anyone here defending someone who murdered their own sister, therefore I don't really see the point of defending people who oppose that here because who exactly am I defending them against anyway?

No, what you and the Reza Aslans of the world do is more subtle than that. You don't support violence. You obfuscate the causes of the violence, obstructing the process of identifying and combating a global problem. You fight tooth and nail against the blindingly obvious, which is that this wave of terrorism perpetrated by Islamists is substantially connected to Islam. Honestly, at this point there is so much evidence available that it takes the mental gymnastics of a climate change denier to remain in denial.

"I just repeat the same propaganda line over and over again without actually bothering to try understanding anything beyond that."

Oh right, if you don't agree with an idea it must be propaganda. And it really speaks volumes about your bias on this topic if all you see in these sophisticated ideas by Muslim reformers is propaganda.

Sure. Have you also noticed that no country with a Buddhist majority happens to have more oil than the US?

I don't know where you're going with this.

"He lowered the number of people working on right-wing terrorism from 25 people to one person at the Department of Homeland Security. The guy who used to run the department is a Republican; he said, 'What're you doin'? We got a lot of right-wing terrorists in this country! Some of them happen to be Christian.'"

I don't think you'll deny that Cenk Uygur is on the left, but that's his point in this video, too. He isn't saying Muslim terrorists are somehow better than Christian terrorists or that there is some kind of fundamental problem with Christianity; he's saying only Muslim terrorists are prosecuted for terrorism.

Once again, you completely dodged my argument. Let me remind you what it was:

"It is so utterly obvious that Islam is more than just an excuse. Just look at the flip side of the coin. When a Christian terrorist bombs an abortion clinic, do you hear anyone on the left saying things like "he would have murdered people anyway and extremist Christianity just happened to be his excuse for doing it"? Of course not! It's absurd!"

And that video did nothing to address it.

And to address what you have just brought up, I of course believe that Christian terrorism should be named for what it is and combated by the authorities. I will go a step further than you though. You mention that "He isn't saying [...] there is some kind of fundamental problem with Christianity". I disagree. There is a fundamental problem with Christianity, the same one Islam has. Namely that parts of its holy book condone or even encourage barbarous acts. And these words of God (as they see it) encourage otherwise reasonable people (not to mention the less reasonable ones) to commit barbarous acts as we witness practically every day now.
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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2016-07-26, 20:04

I don't see the incompatibility between "we should not use Islamist terror attacks as an excuse for Islamophobia" and "Islamist terror attacks are caused by a radical and extreme interpretation of Islam".

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-07-26, 21:11

Yasna wrote:You don't support violence.

Damn right I don't.
You obfuscate the causes of the violence, obstructing the process of identifying and combating a global problem.

No, I analyze the causes of the violence. When violence occurs, I do not limit myself to the demagoguery of one viewpoint; I am interested in looking at as many viewpoints as possible so I can get as much information about it as possible. It's easy to criticize violence, but it's not going to be resolved by just blindly attacking it. If you want to solve violence, then you have to understand where it's coming from.
You fight tooth and nail against the blindingly obvious, which is that this wave of terrorism perpetrated by Islamists is substantially connected to Islam. Honestly, at this point there is so much evidence available that it takes the mental gymnastics of a climate change denier to remain in denial.

If it's so blindingly obvious, then why do you think it is precisely in the 21st century that we are seeing such terrorist attacks? Why not earlier than that? Do you really not think there were Muslim extremists interested in physically attacking the West before that, in the previous century or the one before that?

By the way, here's another example of what is not so blindingly obvious: This whole discussion started with an article about the murder of Qandeel Baloch. That article says that the Pakistani police claim her murder was an honor killing, and from that, you automatically concluded that her murderer was an "Islamist nutcase." But her father says instead that her brother killed her for her money, and in any case, honor killings are a global phenomenon, not one that is limited to countries with a Muslim majority. It's not that clear that the actual motive for her murder had anything to do with Islam.
Oh right, if you don't agree with an idea it must be propaganda.

No. Propaganda is a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of large numbers of people. What you have been citing is a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of large numbers of people. Therefore, it is propaganda.
And it really speaks volumes about your bias on this topic if all you see in these sophisticated ideas by Muslim reformers is propaganda.

I don't; just because they're propaganda doesn't mean they're nothing more than that. Of course I agree that terrorism is bad. Of course I realize that it's being done in the name of Islam. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with every word of what a few people say, nor does it mean I can't wonder what might be motivating them to say what they did.
I don't know where you're going with this.

Let me spell it out for you: The West has been interested in exploiting Middle Eastern oil ever since World War II at least. The US's foreign policy has largely been determined by its thirst for oil. It is largely because of oil that the US has fought wars in the Middle East and made both allies and enemies there for decades. It is precisely because of the US's meddling in that part of the world that these terrorist organizations have managed to conduct so many attacks in so many parts of the world in the space of just a few years; otherwise, they would not have been able to drum up nearly enough popular support in order to gain that much power. If a majority Buddhist country happened to have more oil than the US, I think there would be a very real possibility of Buddhist terrorist organizations gaining similar support there instead.
Once again, you completely dodged my argument.

I did no such thing. You said people on the left wouldn't say Christianity just happens to be used an excuse for terrorism just like Islam does (or indeed like any other religion), and I gave you an example of a person on the left and another on the right saying some terrorists happen to be Christian, rather than saying that Christianity somehow causes terrorism. If it was so unimaginable for a left-winger to say that Christianity is merely an excuse, then why would you see a left-winger saying someone tried to bomb a building and just happened to be citing Christanity as his excuse?
And to address what you have just brought up, I of course believe that Christian terrorism should be named for what it is and combated by the authorities. I will go a step further than you though. You mention that "He isn't saying [...] there is some kind of fundamental problem with Christianity". I disagree. There is a fundamental problem with Christianity, the same one Islam has. Namely that parts of its holy book condone or even encourage barbarous acts. And these words of God (as they see it) encourage otherwise reasonable people (not to mention the less reasonable ones) to commit barbarous acts as we witness practically every day now.

Who is "they"?
mōdgethanc wrote:I don't see the incompatibility between "we should not use Islamist terror attacks as an excuse for Islamophobia" and "Islamist terror attacks are caused by a radical and extreme interpretation of Islam".

Me neither, but I get the impression Yasna is instead saying something more extreme than that, namely: "Islamist terror attacks are caused by Islam," full stop. Not a particular interpretation of Islam, just Islam. To me, such oversimplifications are reminiscent of exactly the kind of logic that leads to warmongering - and terrorism, regardless of whether it's the US, ISIS, or anybody else that's doing it.

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2016-07-26, 23:16

vijayjohn wrote:Me neither, but I get the impression Yasna is instead saying something more extreme than that, namely: "Islamist terror attacks are caused by Islam," full stop. Not a particular interpretation of Islam, just Islam. To me, such oversimplifications are reminiscent of exactly the kind of logic that leads to warmongering - and terrorism, regardless of whether it's the US, ISIS, or anybody else that's doing it.
I'm sure you would agree that Islam is a factor in global terrorism - violent, extremist, political Islam. So are many other factors as well, like poverty, oppression, imperialism, and anomie. To try to blame it on just "Islam" is intellectually lazy and makes no sense. To understand the causes of Islamic terrorism, we need to look at history. We especially need to look at the role of Salafism and other radical ideologies that are propagated by intellectuals and governments in the Middle East. These are fringe beliefs to most Muslims, but they have a lot of appeal to disaffected young men. Why?

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Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-07-26, 23:29

mōdgethanc wrote:I'm sure you would agree that Islam is a factor in global terrorism - violent, extremist, political Islam.

Of course.
So are many other factors as well, like poverty, oppression, imperialism, and anomie.

What's "anomie"? :hmm:


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