Islamic Terrorism

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!

Moderators: Global Moderators, Forum Administrators

Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 1769
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Gender: male
Location: Boston
Country: US United States (United States)

Islamic Terrorism

Postby Yasna » 2015-01-07, 16:31

The latest attack by terrorists inspired by Islam has struck us in the heart. Twelve people, including many journalists, were murdered in an attack on a newspaper office in Paris. How much longer are we going to keep following this failed path of tolerating Islamism in our societies? How many more innocent people have to die because of this?

http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2015/01/07/les-dessinateurs-et-journalistes-tues_4550767_3224.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/08/world/europe/charlie-hebdo-paris-shooting.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=span-ab-top-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 20502
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-07, 17:05

Yasna wrote:How much longer are we going to keep following this failed path of tolerating Islamism in our societies?

What's your proposed alternative?
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7044
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby md0 » 2015-01-07, 18:27

Who exactly tolerates islamism?

Or do you use islamism as a synonym to islam?
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"

User avatar
Varislintu
Posts: 15297
Joined: 2004-02-09, 13:32
Real Name: M.
Gender: female
Location: Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-01-07, 18:38

I second the above questions.
Det finns ingen
tröst. Därför
behöver du den inte
(Gösta Ågren)

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 1769
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Gender: male
Location: Boston
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Yasna » 2015-01-07, 19:06

linguoboy wrote:What's your proposed alternative?

First, it would be nice to have some moral clarity about the beliefs and demands of Islamists. When they threaten violence against those who draw cartoons or burn a book, a lot of voices in politics and the media call out for more sensitivity towards Islam. These voices are essentially asking us to tolerate their Stone Age beliefs.

Second, immigrants who openly admit to Islamist beliefs should be deported. Immigrants from high-risk countries like Saudi Arabia should be screened before entering the country.

Third, we should stop provoking Islamists by engaging in military adventures in the Muslim world and constructing bases in their "holy lands".
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
TeneReef
Posts: 3047
Joined: 2010-04-17, 23:22
Gender: male
Location: Kampor
Country: HR Croatia (Hrvatska)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby TeneReef » 2015-01-07, 19:10

meidei wrote:Who exactly tolerates islamism?

Islam religious leaders who never condemned those actions.
They mastered the dogma ''Em boca fechada não entra mosca''.

Erdoğan is accusing the European Union of ''islamophobia''
and at the same time we get 10 Turkish soap operas on Croatian Tv stations,
so, he is apparently just a manipulative liar. Were we ''islamophobes'',
scenes of veiled woman would be considered inappropriate for our culture, especially in prime time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Rijeka_bombing

The 1995 Rijeka bombing occurred on 20 October 1995 in Rijeka, Croatia, when an Islamic terrorist organization attempted to destroy a police station by driving a car with a bomb into the wall of the building. Twenty-seven employees in the police station and two bystanders on the street were injured
विकृतिः एवम्‌ प्रकृति

User avatar
IpseDixit
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9164
Joined: 2013-05-06, 21:06
Gender: male
Location: Bologna / Milan / Florence
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-01-07, 21:54

Personally one of the things that irk me in these situations is the simplistic response of those who say this is not Islam. I'm sure Islam can be other things other than ISIS, Al-Qaeda and people threatening satiric journalists but maybe it would be a more responsible act to actually accept the fact that Islam can also lead to these kinds of things, just like Christianity led to the crusades and the inquisition and Judaism has led to the West Bank settlers.

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 17670
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-01-07, 22:02

IpseDixit wrote:Personally one of the things that irk me in these situations is the simplistic response of those who say this is not Islam.

But maybe it's just a simplistic response to equally (if not more) simplistic accusations.

User avatar
IpseDixit
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9164
Joined: 2013-05-06, 21:06
Gender: male
Location: Bologna / Milan / Florence
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-01-07, 22:08

vijayjohn wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:Personally one of the things that irk me in these situations is the simplistic response of those who say this is not Islam.

But maybe it's just a simplistic response to equally (if not more) simplistic accusations.


And what would be the simplistic accusations exactly?

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 17670
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-01-07, 22:22

IpseDixit wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:Personally one of the things that irk me in these situations is the simplistic response of those who say this is not Islam.

But maybe it's just a simplistic response to equally (if not more) simplistic accusations.


And what would be the simplistic accusations exactly?

For example, that Islam is "a religion of terror" (wtf is that even supposed to mean?). Also, see the "closed" views listed here.

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 1769
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Gender: male
Location: Boston
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Yasna » 2015-01-07, 23:40

meidei wrote:Who exactly tolerates islamism?

See above.

Or do you use islamism as a synonym to islam?

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
IpseDixit
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9164
Joined: 2013-05-06, 21:06
Gender: male
Location: Bologna / Milan / Florence
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-01-08, 0:19

vijayjohn wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:Personally one of the things that irk me in these situations is the simplistic response of those who say this is not Islam.

But maybe it's just a simplistic response to equally (if not more) simplistic accusations.


And what would be the simplistic accusations exactly?

For example, that Islam is "a religion of terror" (wtf is that even supposed to mean?). Also, see the "closed" views listed here.


What do those have to do with the terrorist attack in Paris?

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 20502
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-08, 0:41

Yasna wrote:First, it would be nice to have some moral clarity about the beliefs and demands of Islamists. When they threaten violence against those who draw cartoons or burn a book, a lot of voices in politics and the media call out for more sensitivity towards Islam. These voices are essentially asking us to tolerate their Stone Age beliefs.
We tolerate "Stone Age beliefs" from Christians, don't we?

Yasna wrote:Second, immigrants who openly admit to Islamist beliefs should be deported.
Which would fix what exactly? The vast majority of those who profess "Islamist beliefs" (however you think the state would end up defining those) never commit violence; those planning to commit violence would simply conceal their Islamist beliefs.

Yasna wrote:Immigrants from high-risk countries like Saudi Arabia should be screened before entering the country.
Aren't they? If France lets Saudis walk right in without even a preliminary interview, then it's the the first I'm hearing of it.

Yasna wrote:Third, we should stop provoking Islamists by engaging in military adventures in the Muslim world and constructing bases in their "holy lands".
We should stop engaging in military adventures in all sorts of places because it's a costly, ineffective, and immoral thing to do, regardless whether or not it "provokes Islamists". Discontinuing them specific in places where it offends Islamists is essentially conceding to their demands and encouraging others to adopt the same strategy.

ETA: I think Juan Cole has a good take on the incident. In his view, a crackdown on "Islamism" would be playing right into the extremists' hands.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 17670
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-01-08, 1:17

IpseDixit wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:Personally one of the things that irk me in these situations is the simplistic response of those who say this is not Islam.

But maybe it's just a simplistic response to equally (if not more) simplistic accusations.


And what would be the simplistic accusations exactly?

For example, that Islam is "a religion of terror" (wtf is that even supposed to mean?). Also, see the "closed" views listed here.


What do those have to do with the terrorist attack in Paris?

I dunno. You talked about "these situations," not about the terrorist attack in Paris specifically.
linguoboy wrote:a crackdown on "Islamism" would be playing right into the extremists' hands.

Exactly.

User avatar
IpseDixit
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9164
Joined: 2013-05-06, 21:06
Gender: male
Location: Bologna / Milan / Florence
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby IpseDixit » 2015-01-08, 1:47

I dunno. You talked about "these situations," not about the terrorist attack in Paris specifically.


By "these situations" I meant terrorist attacks in general and other atrocious acts like beheading people.

Which would fix what exactly? The vast majority of those who profess "Islamist beliefs" (however you think the state would end up defining those) never commit violence; those planning to commit violence would simply conceal their Islamist beliefs.


It's not just about commiting crimes though, there are also public figures like certain spiritual leaders who may never commit a crime but that create an atmosphere of hatred and that incite to or justify violent actions and crimes.

This summer an imam in Italy was expelled from the country because during a khutba he asked Allah to exterminate all the Jews (and for the record, of all the people who where there to pray, no one batted an eyelid) and the same happened in France and the response from the French gov't was the same too (however I don't know if they had an Italian and French passport respectively, probably not, thus making it easier to expell them I guess).

Personally I see nothing wrong with that because I really don't see why we should let this people stay in our countries and preach such awful things.

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6127
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Levike » 2015-01-08, 1:55

I say let's not make this a question about how bad people who believe in Islam are.
A religion doesn't fully determine a person's behaviour, even though it does have its influence.

These people who committed the atrocity are simply criminals and ought to be treated as such.

Apart from this:

A country is a private club for its citizens, they should set their rules for who can get in.

If immigrants from a certain country or region tend to make problems,
then just don't allow them in anymore.
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 20502
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-01-08, 3:02

IpseDixit wrote:It's not just about commiting crimes though, there are also public figures like certain spiritual leaders who may never commit a crime but that create an atmosphere of hatred and that incite to or justify violent actions and crimes.

You mean like National Front politicians?
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 1769
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Gender: male
Location: Boston
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Yasna » 2015-01-08, 4:05

linguoboy wrote:We tolerate "Stone Age beliefs" from Christians, don't we?

We tolerate their beliefs up to the point where they infringe on our rights. And in the West there is no tolerance for violence perpetrated in the name of Christianity, not even from conservative Christians. The same cannot be said for Islam. To give you a taste of Islamists' appetite for violence, according to a 2013 Pew study, a majority of Muslims in Egypt (not the most radical Muslim country) believe that apostasy and adultery should be punished with death.

Which would fix what exactly? The vast majority of those who profess "Islamist beliefs" (however you think the state would end up defining those) never commit violence; those planning to commit violence would simply conceal their Islamist beliefs.

The ones committing the violence aren't the only undesirables. That other group (let's be conservative and say 20% of Muslims in the West) who profess Islamist beliefs and agree with a literal reading of the Quran are also completely undesirable in our societies. Communities of these people are breeding grounds for terrorists.

Aren't they? If France lets Saudis walk right in without even a preliminary interview, then it's the the first I'm hearing of it.

They are probably screened for ties to terrorism, but not to Islamism.

We should stop engaging in military adventures in all sorts of places because it's a costly, ineffective, and immoral thing to do, regardless whether or not it "provokes Islamists". Discontinuing them specific in places where it offends Islamists is essentially conceding to their demands and encouraging others to adopt the same strategy.

You have a point.

ETA: I think Juan Cole has a good take on the incident. In his view, a crackdown on "Islamism" would be playing right into the extremists' hands.

Right from the first sentence he goes completely astray.

"The horrific murder of the editor, cartoonists and other staff of the irreverent satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo, along with two policemen, by terrorists in Paris was in my view a strategic strike, aiming at polarizing the French and European public."

Why do some liberals have such a problem taking terrorists by their word when it comes to their motivations? When the terrorists in Paris said they murdered those journalists to avenge Mohammad, they meant it. When Bin Laden said he orchestrated 9/11 to get revenge on infidel American soldiers who had set up base in Muslim holy lands, he meant it.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

Ludwig Whitby
Posts: 3665
Joined: 2009-03-30, 13:44
Gender: male
Location: Belgrade
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-01-08, 9:49

linguoboy wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:It's not just about commiting crimes though, there are also public figures like certain spiritual leaders who may never commit a crime but that create an atmosphere of hatred and that incite to or justify violent actions and crimes.

You mean like National Front politicians?

Weird that you mention National Front.

From what I've read NF wants to limit immigration (especially from North Africa), doesn't want to automatically give out French passports to citizens of former colonies (such as Algeria) and would deport foreigners who commit any crimes (especially terrorism).

With such policies, it would be unlikely that these guys would even be in France. They wouldn't have had French citizenship. And the one that had already been arrested for terrorism would've been deported.

User avatar
Duiskanieida
Posts: 99
Joined: 2007-03-13, 21:08
Real Name: Bettina
Gender: female
Location: DE
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Re: Islamic Terrorism

Postby Duiskanieida » 2015-01-08, 9:58

Yasna wrote:
Or do you use islamism as a synonym to islam?

No.

Still, the title of this topic is "Islamic Terrorism" instead of "Islamistic Terrorism".

I think that especially in a language forum we should be extremely careful with the choice of words, as this can be misleading.
[flag]de[/flag] [flag]fr[/flag] [flag]en[/flag] [flag]fi[/flag] [flag]sme[/flag]
Jođi lea buoret go oru.


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests