UniLang

Marah wrote:I don't know how widespread these stereotypes are in North America in the first place, but I don't think they exist here.

Very. Maybe it's just because I read medical blogs for fun, but I'd be surprised if you'd never seen an irate patient ranting about how goddamn doctors are all corporate-sponsored pill pushers who DON'T F%$#ING LISTEN!!!!!1

I think I'm underclass.

mōdgethanc wrote:I'd be surprised if you'd never seen an irate patient ranting about how goddamn doctors are all corporate-sponsored pill pushers who DON'T F%$#ING LISTEN!!!!!1

I had some doctors who were actually like that. Not corporate-sponsored since they are paid by the government, so they are encouraged not to prescribe anything if it can be avoided (that's the stereotype here). But these doctors I talk about didn't listen at all.

Some years ago I visited the one I had assigned because my whole body itched, he didn't even look at me and prescribed some cortisone cream. Luckily I didn't use it, because a week later I discovered I had lice.

Years later, with a different doctor, I spent months with a painful yeast infection that went undiscovered because the doctor wouldn't even look at my body. It was after I asked for a doctor reassignment that the new doctor found out what happened.

End of the irate patient rant.

It's a very interesting topic and it is very hard to tell.

Both the Human Development Index measures, and another report that now I cannot quote as I don't remember its name, show that the lowest income pentile in the US has a more or less equivalent Human Deveopment Index as the middle (or third) pentile in Hungary. Including the access to food, money, education, healthcare, sanitation, free-time, etc...

So I don't know how to compare our standards and that in the US.

Also, I read that the definition of "middle-class" today is that the individual or household members will have 1/3 of their monthly income remained after paying for housing and basic food.

Well, I earn way above the average in Hungary, live alone and I don't have 1/3 of my income left after housing and paying for food. At the same time my job needs BSC degree, at least two foreign languages fluently, and the salary is much above average within the country.

So it is hard to judge. It would be good to know the categories better.

As far as what I saw in Germany, Sweden, UK,

My lifestyle and fiscal possibilities might be: lower-middle class. Although my education is better than that and my interests as well as my job, are very different from that of the working-class or lower-middle class of Western Europe. That would rather be middle-class.

Within Hungary I am at least middle-class.

What are the interests of the working class, then?

I think I am working class.

linguoboy wrote:

Saim wrote:"Upper-class" is a different thing to "rich"?

As I said, it depends on the social structure of your civilisation. Since the USA never had a landed aristocracy (except--arguably--in the antebellum South), the two categories are essentially one and the same. We don't really talk about the "upper class" here, though, only about the "wealthy" or the "1%".

In the UK two individuals can have the same income but be considered to be from different classes, based on abstract personal information and the value attached to it (whether/where you went to University, what your first name is, which books you read, where you go on holiday, your consumption habits etc). In other words, income has to go hand in hand with social capital or it might not make much difference (for example, a teacher is going to be seen as more 'middle class' than a plumber, even if they're earning the same wage).

I'm from a very working class background, and more or less self-identify as working class, but I already feel like there's some distance between me and some people from my home town because I've been privileged enough to go to university.

If you look at the median wage of full time workers (in Australia), I am right smack in the middle - I could hardly be anymore middle class than I am now. If you look at the median wage of all workers (full time and part time), then I am a bit more comfortably middle class, but far from upper middle to upper class by any stretch. Considering I was in the bottom rung for most of my life, it's quite nice now to be in the middle.

I'm well off, my father is at the local iron works 9 hours a day in the white-collar departments. I don't know what I would call myself

What are the differences between working class, upper lower class and lower middle class? Ar first glance they seem all to be about the same? Does working class refer to blue collar jobs mostly? Because, if we were to take that term literally, it'd apply to anyone who has a job.

I also don't know what the difference between upper class and rich are. How do you define rich? Millionaire? And über rich? Billionaire? I doubt any billionaires post here tbh. they're probably too busy running their empire or playing professional sports. Billionaires are usually pro sports athletes, top actors and celebrities and owners of large companies, I'm guessing?

As for my vote, I've always defined myself as middle class. I'm neither poor nor rich and I wouldn't call myself upper-middle class either. And I'd faster call myself lower middle class than upper middle class. I guess I'm part of the "majority class"?

Working class.

Prowler wrote:What are the differences between working class, upper lower class and lower middle class? Ar first glance they seem all to be about the same? Does working class refer to blue collar jobs mostly? Because, if we were to take that term literally, it'd apply to anyone who has a job.

As I said, the exact distinctions will vary depending upon the social structure of your society. The poll categories weren't meant to be exhaustive or exclusive; that is, you could potentially consider yourself both "rich" and "working class" (e.g. someone who worked in a mine and then happened to living on an extremely valuable piece of property which they sold for a huge windfall). A person who is "Upper Middle Class" is still, by definition, "Middle Class". But--as the discussion demonstrated--a lot of "middle class" folks aren't comfortable pinpointing their class identify more precisely than just "Middle Class".

"Working class" is a term of art, i.e. it has a technical meaning which isn't deducible from the literal meaning of its components. Of course the popular meaning (and usage) may diverge significantly from the sociological definition. There's been a fair bit of criticism in the USA lately of news media using "working class" in a way that seems to exclude POC (e.g. talking about "working class" support for Trump, when what they really have in mind is poor white people).

My understanding is that working class means blue-collar or manual labour, while middle-class means white-collar or office jobs, with lower middle class being entry-level and upper middle class being highly educated professionals. Upper class means the super wealthy who have so much property they have no need to work if they don't feel like it (millionaires for example).

I selected middle class when this thread was created, but now I think maybe I'm actually underclass or working poor or something. I'm currently unemployed and have never made much money (barely above minimum wage) even when employed, but I also share my money with my dad (if not with my family in general), barely ever spend any, and still live with my parents in a nice big house.

vijayjohn wrote:I selected middle class when this thread was created, but now I think maybe I'm actually underclass or working poor or something. I'm currently unemployed and have never made much money (barely above minimum wage) even when employed, but I also share my money with my dad (if not with my family in general), barely ever spend any, and still live with my parents in a nice big house.

class ≠ income
class ≠ wealth
class ≠ employment status

The fact alone that you can live with your parents in a "nice big house" disqualifies you from being "working poor", let alone "underclass".

linguoboy wrote:class ≠ income
class ≠ wealth
class ≠ employment status

But aren't any of those things relevant in determining what class you belong to?

The fact alone that you can live with your parents in a "nice big house" disqualifies you from being "working poor", let alone "underclass".

How can you be so sure? What even is class?

vijayjohn wrote:

linguoboy wrote:class ≠ income
class ≠ wealth
class ≠ employment status

But aren't any of those things relevant in determining what class you belong to?

They are, but they are far from the only relevant factors. The boho poverty of a middle-class kid living in squalour as they pursue their dream of being an actor is categorically different from the grinding poverty of someone from the underclass who's the first in their family to hold a decent-paying steady job.

vijayjohn wrote:

The fact alone that you can live with your parents in a "nice big house" disqualifies you from being "working poor", let alone "underclass".

How can you be so sure? What even is class?

There's no universally-accepted definition, but I believe it has a lot to do with habitus. Based on your socioeconomic status, you were raised with certain expectations that shape how you perceive and interact with the world around you; those don't simply vanish the day one of your jobs comes to an end.

I also like Pierre Bourdieu's ideas, but there's also the binary definition of "class" from Marxism, i.e. working class and employer class.
All I am saying is that there is more than one valid definition of "class" in this context.

linguoboy wrote:those don't simply vanish the day one of your jobs comes to an end.

Who said anything about vanishing the day one of my jobs comes to an end? I'm trying to look at what jobs I've had, what jobs I can find to apply for, how much we buy, how much we eat, how much we spend on things, etc. We can't afford as much now as we once could, so I have some doubts as to whether we really are middle class now. I think it's fair to say we used to be, though.

I would look at the poverty line for the US to decide between working class and working poor if I were you (and if variance is too extreme in the US, the respective statistic for your state).