Racism

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Lur
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Re: Racism

Postby Lur » 2018-07-18, 17:23

Now that I think about it the Northwest Territories have less population than the Finnish Lapland. Wait, let me rephrase that: it has less population than the town in the middle of Jaén I grew up in and that I hated. My guess is that for some lawmakers it makes sense to restrict official languages to places they regard as less demographically relevant, and that if someone tried to do the same in the big cities all hell would be break loose with white people complaining. (I don't know if the "fuck rural areas in regard to all services" also happens there)
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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2018-07-18, 17:27

Lur wrote:Now that I think about it the Northwest Territories have less population than the Finnish Lapland. Wait, let me rephrase that: it has less population than the town in the middle of Jaén I grew up in and that I hated. My guess is that for some lawmakers it makes sense to restrict official languages to places they regard as less demographically relevant, and that if someone tried to do the same in the big cities all hell would be break loose with white people complaining.

Isn't it more that indigenous groups tend to be concentrated in "less demographically relevant places"? There's a lot of pushback (mainly, but not just from white people) against making more recent immigrant languages official even in areas where they're frequently spoken.
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Re: Racism

Postby Lur » 2018-07-18, 17:37

I figured the relocation (forceful or not) of people had a bit to do with that.

(I'm reminded I've been following the mess about the officialization of Asturian here for months and a lot of people were simply repeating "it's not important, there are other issues" on a loop, which is something that a lot of pro-oficial people who actually talk about other issues say, but then I couldn't understand why was there a argument and resistance in the first place, if it's that simple and there are other issues... just make it official and get working on the other issues :lol: )
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-19, 5:50

Lur wrote:I also don't know what liberal multiculturalism is :para:

I also have no clue wtf cultural protectionism is.
Saim wrote:Often progressive(-ish) Westerners seem to ignore that Islamic societies have their own internal dynamics and struggles

I don't think it's just Westerners; it's probably myself as well, for example. I think the problem may rather be that people who aren't from Islamic societies are so much more likely to get it all wrong, either by criticizing things too much or by not criticizing them enough.

I know that Islamic societies have their own internal dynamics and struggles, but I don't know all that much about them, and, you know, more to the point, I'm not Muslim. I'm not a member of those societies; I've never been in one and never had any reason to be in one. I'm not the one who's subject to the oppression in question. I couldn't possibly know firsthand what it's like to be in that position. How can I say anything of substance about those struggles with no social context?
md0 wrote:On that, recently I read this piece, and honestly, I found it utterly pointless. Nothing in it helped me connect to the author's experience. And I'm someone who is against "militant Atheism" and/or "New Atheism".
How a Pilgrimage to Mecca Helped Me Embrace My Queer Muslim Identity

I don't get what's so bad about it.
Lur wrote:And the "teach the settlers the language" seems to have worked in what, one country?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Aren't black slaves in the Americas also settlers? Weren't black slaves in the Caribbean and some parts of South America essentially taught creoles that formed in those parts of the world?

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Re: Racism

Postby Lur » 2018-07-19, 8:24

I can't say for sure who's a settler and who isn't (I mostly apply the word to the idea of myself emigrating there in the end), but black enslaved people brought there forcefully can't possibly be settlers.
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-07-19, 12:26

Why not? They live there, and they're no more indigenous to the land than white people are.

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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2018-07-19, 14:06

vijayjohn wrote:Why not? They live there, and they're no more indigenous to the land than white people are.

But it's a radically different history--being enslaved, brought unwillingly, and perpetually marginalised--from choosing to emigrate to a country whose institutions are specifically designed to favour people of your background. Most people I know who speak of "settler societies" make a tripartite distinction between settlers, the enslaved, and the indigenes.
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Re: Racism

Postby Lur » 2018-07-19, 14:36

To be honest I've also described indigenes as settlers (the Iroquois, the inuit, the apache, nahuans, quechua speakers...) so maybe I'm kind of a nitpicking asshole or the word in my mind isn't entirely tied to a negative connotation.
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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2018-07-19, 14:40

Lur wrote:To be honest I've also described indigenes as settlers (the Iroquois, the inuit, the apache, nahuans, quechua speakers...) so maybe I'm kind of a nitpicking asshole or the word in my mind isn't entirely tied to a negative connotation.

Or maybe you simply don't understand what the word is supposed to denote in this context?
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Re: Racism

Postby Lur » 2018-07-19, 14:46

I'm aware it's different. I can think of many different reasons why it's different.
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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2018-07-19, 18:04

Getting back on topic, a tight job market in the US means that unemployment rates are dropping in Chicago. For young black males (age 20-24), it dropped from 46%...to 37%. (Overall, the jobless rate is 3.9%.)

This came out because of a debate about what to do about idle local teens.
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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2018-07-19, 20:29

linguoboy wrote:Image

That's easy. How about the case of Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying who were forced from tenured professorships by a mob with baseball bats who were falsely alleging racism and had partnered with college administration? (Police were ordered by the college president not to intervene.) Or Maajid Nawaz, who was falsely accused of being an "anti-Muslim extremist" by the Southern Poverty Law Center, and receives death threats from radical Muslims. Or the incident where an angry mob of students, many citing the SPLC’s designation of Charles Murray as a white nationalist, physically attacked Murray during a speech at Middlebury College. He escaped unharmed, but the liberal professor who invited him ended up in the hospital. These are just some of the most egregious cases. If you dig a little you will find much more.

The Southern Poverty Law Center has lost all credibility

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cMYfxOFBBM

vijayjohn wrote:In response, I encourage you to read this, this, and even this because it was forty-seven girls that were identified as victims, not hundreds as your source claims.


"Hundreds of girls and young women were raped in the city of Rotherham, and hundreds by similar exploitation rings in Rochdale, Peterborough, Newcastle, Oxford, and Bristol. Now, up to a thousand girls are thought to have been drugged, raped, and beaten in Telford between the 1980s and the 2010s."

I think this should be parsed as hundreds altogether from those rings, not hundreds in each city.

Even when much of that information is demonstrably false?

To be clear, I had in mind information sources that are essentially still based in reality (like Sargon), not Alex Jones types.

Saim wrote:This is precisely my point:
[...]
I just think that Carl's treatment of the issue is primarily used to push a xenophobic narrative.

I think when you analyze his more outrageous statements (like the rape one) in their full context, they aren't quite as outrageous. But still distasteful. Anyway, my original point was just that he isn't alt-right, not that there aren't all kinds of problems with his ideas.
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Re: Racism

Postby Prowler » 2018-07-20, 0:17

I'm just gonna add this in case I haven't said it yet: it is kind of annoying how White Americans have pretty much became or made themselves into the "main representatives" of White people all over the world. Black Americans are like that for Black people all over the world as well, I'm guessing. Fortunately for Asian people all around the world the Asian diaspora in USA isn't as significant as the European and African ones are, so people will faster think of an actual Chinese, Japanese or Indian(depending on their definition of Asian) person when they first hear the word Asian than of an Asian American.

It is what it is, I guess. But still sucks anyway.

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Re: Racism

Postby Lur » 2018-07-20, 7:42

Prowler wrote:I'm just gonna add this in case I haven't said it yet: it is kind of annoying how White Americans have pretty much became or made themselves into the "main representatives" of White people all over the world. Black Americans are like that for Black people all over the world as well, I'm guessing. Fortunately for Asian people all around the world the Asian diaspora in USA isn't as significant as the European and African ones are, so people will faster think of an actual Chinese, Japanese or Indian(depending on their definition of Asian) person when they first hear the word Asian than of an Asian American.

It is what it is, I guess. But still sucks anyway.

I've notice that people there use "white people" to mean either "white people" or "white Americans" or "Europeans" or "criollos" or many different things, which leads to having to guess according to context. It's even there in jokes, like the "white people don't like spices" joke.
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Re: Racism

Postby Prowler » 2018-07-20, 15:53

Lur wrote:
Prowler wrote:I'm just gonna add this in case I haven't said it yet: it is kind of annoying how White Americans have pretty much became or made themselves into the "main representatives" of White people all over the world. Black Americans are like that for Black people all over the world as well, I'm guessing. Fortunately for Asian people all around the world the Asian diaspora in USA isn't as significant as the European and African ones are, so people will faster think of an actual Chinese, Japanese or Indian(depending on their definition of Asian) person when they first hear the word Asian than of an Asian American.

It is what it is, I guess. But still sucks anyway.

I've notice that people there use "white people" to mean either "white people" or "white Americans" or "Europeans" or "criollos" or many different things, which leads to having to guess according to context. It's even there in jokes, like the "white people don't like spices" joke.

I guess they just refer to Europeans by their actual nationalities?

Do countries like Brazil, Argentina, Australia, Canada, etc. also do this stuff?

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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2018-07-20, 17:14

Lur wrote:I've notice that people there use "white people" to mean either "white people" or "white Americans" or "Europeans" or "criollos" or many different things, which leads to having to guess according to context. It's even there in jokes, like the "white people don't like spices" joke.

I don't know that we always think through what we mean when we use the term. I would say that "white American" is the prototype of a "white person" and how far the penumbra can reasonably extend out from there is what depends on context. White Americans tend to be pretty ignorant of the differences between them and white people from other countries which predisposes them to consider these differences to be smaller than they are. (The think, for example, that being Irish-American is pretty much the same as being Irish from Ireland, for instance.)

White Americans also have a narrower definition of "white" than people from some other places. For the "white people don't like spices" joke to work, for instance, it has to exclude Latinx, including those who see themselves as "white".
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Re: Racism

Postby Prowler » 2018-07-20, 17:37

linguoboy wrote:
Lur wrote:I've notice that people there use "white people" to mean either "white people" or "white Americans" or "Europeans" or "criollos" or many different things, which leads to having to guess according to context. It's even there in jokes, like the "white people don't like spices" joke.

I don't know that we always think through what we mean when we use the term. I would say that "white American" is the prototype of a "white person" and how far the penumbra can reasonably extend out from there is what depends on context. White Americans tend to be pretty ignorant of the differences between them and white people from other countries which predisposes them to consider these differences to be smaller than they are. (The think, for example, that being Irish-American is pretty much the same as being Irish from Ireland, for instance.)

White Americans also have a narrower definition of "white" than people from some other places. For the "white people don't like spices" joke to work, for instance, it has to exclude Latinx, including those who see themselves as "white".

Dunno, they don't interact with actual born and bred Europeans enough so they probably don't even consider them or think about them. For Americans USA is the world basically. The default. And if they met Europeans they'r in for a shock and will notice a lot of differences. Also, I thought many Americans viewed Europeans as being snobbish, pretentious, effeminate(I don't get this one) and football loving?

A lot of things Americans consider racist Europeans do not really. Blackface for example.

The whole racial problems things going on in USA are something a lot of Europeans have difficulty grasping. The whole white privilege thing for example, most Europeans probably don't believe in that or understand what that means exactly, or they'll just see it as an American thing and claim it doesn't apply in their home countries.

Ofc the American media being so powerful I'm not surprised that a lot of stuff said in American movies etc influences the way the whole world thinks and trends/fashions. So perhaps those differences will become even smaller every decade. It's particularly troublesome when it comes to history and WW2. A ton of Americans still think USA did everything in WW2 and saved literally every single European country from the Nazis, for example. I mean Europeans don't buy that. As a Romanian and a Bulgarian guy told me once "no help from the USA here. Not giving them any gratitude".

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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2018-07-20, 17:57

Prowler wrote:Dunno, they don't interact with actual born and bred Europeans enough so they probably don't even consider them or think about them.

And the ones they do interact tend to be those who have come here by choice who--for obvious reasons--aren't really representative of the majority.

A review of the movie Barcelona once took it to task for depicting Europeans as "rough draught Americans in need of a stateside rewrite". That's probably the best summation of the USAmerican attitude toward people from other countries I've ever seen. We honestly believe that everyone would be happier if they were Americans. And why not? We're surrounded by people who came here to become Americans and tell us how much better off they are than they were in their home countries.

Prowler wrote:Also, I thought many Americans viewed Europeans as being snobbish, pretentious, effeminate(I don't get this one) and football loving?

Not all Europeans, just whichever ones they happen to arbitrarily dislike (generally the French).

Prowler wrote:A lot of things Americans consider racist Europeans do not really. Blackface for example.

What do Black Europeans think of blackface? I know that it's widely condemned in the UK, where Blacks make up 3% of the overall population.

Prowler wrote:The whole racial problems things going on in USA are something a lot of Europeans have difficulty grasping. The whole white privilege thing for example, most Europeans probably don't believe in that or understand what that means exactly

You can say the same of a lot of white Americans.
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Re: Racism

Postby Lur » 2018-07-20, 18:01

linguoboy wrote:White Americans also have a narrower definition of "white" than people from some other places. For the "white people don't like spices" joke to work, for instance, it has to exclude Latinx, including those who see themselves as "white".

I know someone from here who once went with her a family to the USA for a year or two. They told her she was from a different race than her brother or one of parents. I don't remember the specifics but :lol:
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Re: Racism

Postby Prowler » 2018-07-20, 18:12

linguoboy wrote:And the ones they do interact tend to be those who have come here by choice who--for obvious reasons--aren't really representative of the majority.

A review of the movie Barcelona once took it to task for depicting Europeans as "rough draught Americans in need of a stateside rewrite". That's probably the best summation of the USAmerican attitude toward people from other countries I've ever seen. We honestly believe that everyone would be happier if they were Americans. And why not? We're surrounded by people who came here to become Americans and tell us how much better off they are than they were in their home countries.


Unrelated to immigration, but things like retailers in Europe pushing Halloween and Black Friday probably don't help change that perception either.

Anyway, I thought that belief was something that was mostly strong/unanimous up until 9/11 and the Iraqi War. Once the Cold War ended it was a matter of time for Americans to realise a lot of countries no longer really need their "help" per se.

linguoboy wrote:What do Black Europeans think of blackface? I know that it's widely condemned in the UK, where Blacks make up 3% of the overall population.


No idea. But as we all know, lots of European countries barely have any Sub-Saharan African population, and even ones like the UK and France aren't exactly USA demographically speaking, so regardless of how they feel about blackface they're not large enough in numbers to make significant noise and make the majority of Europeans want to make any changes.

If I walk around my city I'll occasionally see a black face like statue right by the entrance door of an older café or something. I've never heard of it being made a big deal about by anyone. Who knows what the reason(s) might be. There could be plenty.

linguoboy wrote:You can say the same of a lot of white Americans.


Lots of White Americans believe in white privilege, though. Haven't really met any European who does. My interaction has been limited, but based on conversations and observations I've had online, Europeans find the concept absurd in general. Tbh I'm not even sure exactly what it is either. I guess it fits USA due to tis history but I'm unsure it can easily apply to European countries. Seems to be a majority thing, so I'm guessing you can also talk about Japanese privilege in Japan, for example?


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