Racism

[vijayjohn]

To be fair, I would say at least some of the specific criticisms are true; I just don't think they say anything informative about affirmative action in India.

India’s reticular caste system poses unique problems. Legions of ethnic groups seek categorization as “backwards classes.”

I mean, duh. Welcome to India. Any system poses its own unique problems. Any country comparable in size to most of Europe is going to have tons of ethnic groups that all want recognition in some form.

Each locality has its own hierarchy of quotas.

I don't think this should be surprising, either, because the caste system is a lot more complex in reality than people make it out to be. The Brahmin-Kshatriya-Vaishya-etc. hierarchy is basically a colonial oversimplification of the reality IIUC. The actual hierarchy on the ground depends on where in India you are. For example, in Kerala, there was never any Vaishya caste because people of Abrahamic religions took on jobs in the areas of finance, agriculture, etc. that Vaishyas elsewhere in India might do. When the caste system itself differs based on locality, why shouldn't the system of affirmative action, too?

Despite its intricacy, government discrimination still produces tension and violence.

This is basically saying "affirmative action doesn't resolve everything." That is true. But I don't think that's the argument, either. It is a step forward, not the be-all and end-all.

In Maharashtra, the paramilitary Shiv Sena jealously guards ethnic spoils systems.

Okay, I'm not exactly a fan of Shiv Sena, but this still seems like a pretty loaded sentence to me.

I think first, it's important to understand what Shiv Sena is and/or where it came from in the first place. Mumbai is the capital of Maharashtra. However, the lingua franca of Mumbai is Hindi, not Marathi, because the majority of the population is not indigenous to the area. Understandably, people who are indigenous to the area may find their language and identity being threatened as a result. Shiv Sena initially formed as a response to this (and then later became basically another Hindu extremist organization). Originally, at least, the survival of Marathi in Mumbai had nothing to do with caste discrimination.

Successful Bengalis in the state of Assam have encountered violence from aggrieved natives.

Similar problem here. In many parts of India, there are immigrants, and this leads to tension like in lots of other places around the world. These are important problems, but they are also not exactly the same thing as casteism.

Scions of the upper-castes have self-immolated protesting quotas that limit their opportunities.

This is true. As a person from a high-caste background myself, this makes absolutely no sense to me, and all I can say is that people believe propaganda way too easily instead of actually looking for the truth. The truth is that in India, as in the US, there are plenty of rich spoiled brats who get opportunities they did nothing to deserve, and this is the elephant in the room everyone except maybe low-caste people is conveniently ignoring while scapegoating low-caste people.

Many reserved spots for Dalits (“untouchables”) and other backwards classes either go unfilled—especially in high-skill occupations like engineering—or go to the “creamy layer” (i.e., the most advantaged members of putatively marginalized groups)."

Again, this is because affirmative action is not being implemented well enough yet. Any change in a country that was a colonial possession in recent history takes time especially when the colonial administration drastically changed many fundamental aspects of life in that country.

[Yasna]

A white woman in a gorilla mask threw an egg at a black man seeking to become the first non-white governor of our largest state, and the media shrug.

If Elder were a Democrat, the attack would have been instantly and with good reason dubbed racist. It would not only be front-page news, it would be just about the only news you were hearing about today on CNN and MSNBC. Charles Blow, Perry Bacon, and Jamelle Bouie would each be writing the first in a series of angry columns about it. So would Gail Collins, Jonathan Capehart, Jennifer Rubin, Michelle Goldberg, Paul Krugman, Maureen Dowd, Dana Milbank, and Ezra Klein. We would be treated to multiple news analyses about the history of the usage of gorilla tropes against blacks. Joy-Ann Reid, Rachel Maddow, and Don Lemon would be doing hour-long broadcasts on the attack, convening panels discussing just how the attack pulls the scab off racism in America, and proves we have so much work left to do in dealing with the problem. Vox would commission a series about California’s grim history of racism dating back to the Chinese Exclusion Act, and Asian-American and Latino writers would hasten to explain that California’s historic hostility to all sorts of persons of color is as traditional as its Tournament of Roses parade. Three-thousand-word essays about the brutal, unknown history of lynchings in the Golden State would be published in The Atlantic and/or The New Yorker. Al Sharpton, exhibiting a combination of exhaustion and despondency, would be a guest on half a dozen cable TV shows.

[vijayjohn]

Yeah, yeah, we know. Racism only matters when it's being done against Republicans.

[Yasna]

The Left’s racialist ideologies threaten to transform America into a prison yard.

When new inmates arrive in California state prisons, they pass through the gauntlet of other men and must make a quick decision: With whom do they stand? They have four options: the whites, the blacks, the Latinos, and the others. For most of the “fish,” or fresh convicts, it’s not much of a choice—they are chosen. The prisons are divided into strictly separated racial gangs, which have their own leadership structure, lunch tables, yard space, and black markets. The new inmates typically fall in with their racial brothers: whites with whites, blacks with blacks, Latinos with Latinos.[...]

Critical race theory draws heavily from black nationalist ideology, such as that of the Black Panther Party, which came to fruition in California prisons in the 1960s. The new iteration of this ideology might have abandoned the militant rhetoric of the Panthers in favor of the therapeutic language of the school psychologist, but it nevertheless threatens to replicate the destructive features of prison-gang politics in the “outside world.” If American institutions succumb to this ideology, they can expect a brutal future: the suspension of individualism in favor of racial collectivism; a nihilistic, zero-sum vision of society; and endemic racial conflict as a baseline condition. It would reverse the racial progress that the United States has made over the centuries.[...]

Despite the success of critical race theory in prestige institutions, American voters still prefer individualism, colorblindness, and equal protection under the law. Even voters in deep-blue California have rejected affirmative-action policies that would judge individuals according to race rather than merit. The challenge is to turn this public preference into public action. Critical race theory has spread through our institutions, despite strong public opposition. Americans must act to prevent the country from becoming the equivalent of a sprawling, open-air prison yard.

[vijayjohn]

Yeah yeah, of course. If we educate people on racism the country will turn into a fucking racist prison.

[linguoboy]

Every day I discover a new kind of magical thinking.

(Also, I have some bad news for Conservatives about where Paul wrote some of his most influential epistles.)

[Yasna]

Every day I discover a new kind of magical thinking.

The only magic is how progressives manage to studiously ignore the harmful effects of many of their own policies. I guess it helps when every criticism of this racialist ideology is dismissed out of hand as people just not wanting to learn about slavery.

[vijayjohn]

Every criticism that racists make is rightfully dismissed out of hand, yes.

[linguoboy]

Every day I discover a new kind of magical thinking.

The only magic is how progressives manage to studiously ignore the harmful effects of many of their own policies.

C'mon, this thesis is so half-baked it refutes itself. American universities are awash in CRT and it's hard to think of a large institution less like a prison.

This is just scaremongering, pure and simple. It only seems plausible if you bring to it a very specific worldview.

[Yasna]

C'mon, this thesis is so half-baked it refutes itself. American universities are awash in CRT and it's hard to think of a large institution less like a prison.

So I guess American universities aren't increasingly segregating along racial lines?

[vijayjohn]

Lmao what?

[vijayjohn]

Response to this post (admittedly, only the last part really has to do with racism, but it is also the longest part of Woods's post):

How do you decide whether someone is worth hiring if not by their degrees

I will figure that out if I need to hire people. But I probably wouldn't care so much about the degrees. There are many places where the requirements are not set properly, and I think the world needs to be more flexible. Especially in Europe - I suppose you actually have it a little better over there, and that could've been a reason why I wasn't understood. Try working something in France when your degree says something else, and I think I'll see you here shouting ten times louder the same things as me.

I don't think you're necessarily wrong, and I'm not sure it's any easier over here. I'm just saying it's easier to criticize the situation than to actually fix it.

No, you've completely misunderstood me here. I am talking about the opposite, people on the Internet trashing good ideas that are relatively new but that they also don't like.

You mean your ideas?

No, I mean other people's ideas that everyone in a given context is trashing.

You put yourself in my shoes and said that if you were me and I told you I had a negative impression about you, you wouldn't have reacted nicely. So I'm asking why would you care so much about what I think, or feel so bad if I think something bad? It is just one person's opinion - it's normal that there be people who like you and people who don't.

I mean, why wouldn't I care? You yourself seem to care so much about what I think that you actually thanked me for criticizing you.

I've come to the point where I'm starting to believe the vast majority of people at least in the US, Canada, Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, possibly Uruguay, probably most of the Middle East, and basically all of Europe simply don't want me to exist.

That is really hard on yourself. I strongly advise you to stop thinking about what other people are thinking of you and make your own opinion. You seem to be doing it way too much, to the point of the extreme.

That is because in this country, anyone with my skin color can be killed because of "what other people are thinking of" us. Racists have singled out and murdered Indians several times over the past few decades. The latest incident I personally recall was just a few years ago. I cannot afford to take that risk.

The US?

Well, think of it this way: everyone who bases their opinion on someone's skin colour is stupid, so if someone is telling you they're stupid every time they look at you, shouldn't you rather be sorry for them than take it personally?

There are many traits by which someone might try to deem you less worthy than themselves but those are everything but objective. I am aware there has been horrible treatment of some people especially black people in the past and the consequences are persisting through the present, but I am happy to see we're on our way to solving this problem.

But then you can be judged on something else - maybe you're shorter, less educated, your language skills are not as good, you're older (or younger) than someone, you're at a lower level in the hierarchy, you're less blond or God knows what.

I mean you will always be less than someone at some things and more than someone at other things. So at the end why not enjoy what you have? Is it worth being annoyed by other people's stupidity in your everyday life?

I am pretty sure the racists and other such assholes are in the minority, but from the things you said I got the impression that you'd expect every other person to be like that. Doesn't expecting people to be racist oftentimes become a self-fulfilling prophecy?


And yeah, I've heard about the police killing a number of black people disproportionate to white ones and so on. But it seems to me that your laws allow such actions to take place more so than they should. So it could theoretically happen to a white person too. But for historical reasons black people are less well off, so more likely to find themselves in a situation where they can be shot - isn't it so?

So the problem is on many levels. The more people of colour doing cool things there are, the less racism there's going to be. The more equality there is, the less crime there's going to be. And the more love there is, the less hatred there's going to be!

I am not claiming to have all the answers here, just trying to help with what I can.

And seriously, man, I'm not trying to downplay the problem. I'm 100% on your side. I just think the way to solve racism is by eliminating the things which let it happen in the first place.

Pretty much all of this is things white people say when they have no idea what racism actually is because not only have they never had to experience it, they've never even dealt with it in any way, including reading anything people who have had to experience it have to say about it.

Yes, I mean the US. No, racists in the US are by no means a minority. Have you already forgotten who the last president of the US was? If American society were not fundamentally racist, he would have already been behind bars long before the election, certainly not allowed to run for president, let alone to win! Just over one month after he became president, one Indian was shot and another was killed.

We are not "on our way to solving this problem" at all. We are actively worsening the problem. Black people in the US are not simply coming from a historically bad situation; the people around them are making their situation worse all the time. I would not believe people here were so racist if American racism wasn't in my face all the time.

Why not enjoy what I have? I try, but there's not much I do have! I struggle to make friends. I used to think maybe it was because I was stupid or clumsy or not good at sports or nerdy or have an anxiety disorder, but no. I've come to realize it's almost certainly because people here are extremely racist. They simply cannot tolerate the existence of an Indian person with Indian parents. They never have.

In India or even Taiwan, I can talk to random people off the street and make friends instantly. In Taiwan in particular, no one even treats me as a foreigner even though it is painfully obvious that I am not Taiwanese. In the US, I am incredibly lucky if I can make even one friend after trying very hard for over thirty years.

[Yasna]

Why not enjoy what I have? I try, but there's not much I do have! I struggle to make friends. I used to think maybe it was because I was stupid or clumsy or not good at sports or nerdy or have an anxiety disorder, but no. I've come to realize it's almost certainly because people here are extremely racist. They simply cannot tolerate the existence of an Indian person with Indian parents. They never have.

In India or even Taiwan, I can talk to random people off the street and make friends instantly. In Taiwan in particular, no one even treats me as a foreigner even though it is painfully obvious that I am not Taiwanese. In the US, I am incredibly lucky if I can make even one friend after trying very hard for over thirty years.

On the whole, I also find it much easier to make friends with non-Americans and Asian Americans. A few factors I have identified, which probably apply to you as well to varying degrees:

I'm introverted, and American culture has a decidely boisterous tilt. One of its more obvious manifestations is in job interviews, where you're expected to brag about yourself. This alienates me.

I don't give two shits about professional sports, and feel alienated by how much American social life revolves around them.

One of my biggest interests is languages, and this functions much better as a node for connecting with people when those people speak a language other than English. For example, a few years ago I was at a party talking with a guy who told me he was from Kerala. I asked him if he spoke Malayalam and it blew him away because it was the first time an American had even heard of his language. We were instant friends.

A certain type of provincialism thrives in a country more powerful than any other, which speaks the most important language in the world. It alienates me.

[vijayjohn]

In the US, I have found it easier to make friends with or at least have friendly relations of some kind with people who are not white but only as an adult. When I was growing up, other Indian Americans my age were the ones who had the worst biases against their own culture, which I found even more alienating than how other Americans my age treated me.

That being said, I also remember that at that age, it was far easier to make friends in St. Louis, including white friends, than it ever was here in Austin.

[Woods]

...

You know, I am constantly telling myself that the things I do just don't have a big enough impact. I am occasionally working on one website, where I want to put forward issues like that. I am ready with my answer. But yet, how many are we in this forum - five, ten, twenty? Probably just you and me and possibly one or two other people will read this particular thread.

I literally put a topic on the front page called "Racism continues in Europe - and what to do about it". And it has remained like that - without anything written, for half a year. Would you mind if I post my reply to you there as a separate opinion piece, with a few quotes, and give you a link? I think it might become more useful in the big scheme of things, overtime.

And by the way, will copying some of the text be allowed by UniLang's copyright rules? It shouldn't be a problem if most of it is from my own posts? I don't even find the terms and conditions - should I ask someone for permission?

[vijayjohn]

You know, I am constantly telling myself that the things I do just don't have a big enough impact.

I doubt that, but then I'm not sure what exactly you mean yet, so I guess I won't say anything more about that for now.

I am occasionally working on one website, where I want to put forward issues like that. I am ready with my answer. But yet, how many are we in this forum - five, ten, twenty? Probably just you and me and possibly one or two other people will read this particular thread.

At least in theory, there are 28,045 users listed on UniLang, although honestly, most of those are probably spammer accounts (before you even ask, no, I have no idea why there are so many). I think I get your point, though.

I literally put a topic on the front page called "Racism continues in Europe - and what to do about it". And it has remained like that - without anything written, for half a year. Would you mind if I post my reply to you there as a separate opinion piece, with a few quotes, and give you a link? I think it might become more useful in the big scheme of things, overtime.

Okay, but what if I want to say something else in reply?

And by the way, will copying some of the text be allowed by UniLang's copyright rules? It shouldn't be a problem if most of it is from my own posts? I don't even find the terms and conditions - should I ask someone for permission?

I don't see a problem with copying it, for whatever that's worth. What text exactly do you mean? Copying text from the article to UniLang or the other way around? (I don't think either of those should be a problem).

[Woods]

Okay, but what if I want to say something else in reply?

Then we update the article.

And by the way, will copying some of the text be allowed by UniLang's copyright rules? It shouldn't be a problem if most of it is from my own posts? I don't even find the terms and conditions - should I ask someone for permission?

I don't see a problem with copying it, for whatever that's worth. What text exactly do you mean? Copying text from the article to UniLang or the other way around? (I don't think either of those should be a problem).

The other way around.

[vijayjohn]

Okay, but what if I want to say something else in reply?

Then we update the article.

Okay, then feel free to give me a link whenever you like.

Where do I contact you so you can update the article? Are you going to drop the link and then let me say something about it in this thread so you can update it?

And by the way, will copying some of the text be allowed by UniLang's copyright rules? It shouldn't be a problem if most of it is from my own posts? I don't even find the terms and conditions - should I ask someone for permission?

I don't see a problem with copying it, for whatever that's worth. What text exactly do you mean? Copying text from the article to UniLang or the other way around? (I don't think either of those should be a problem).

The other way around.

Okay. I don't see a problem with that.

[azhong]

On the whole, I also find it much easier to make friends with non-Americans and Asian Americans.

I'm introverted, and American culture has a decidely boisterous tilt. One of its more obvious manifestations is in job interviews, where you're expected to brag about yourself...

I don't give two shits about professional sports, and feel alienated by how much American social life revolves around them.

A certain type of provincialism thrives in a country more powerful than any other...

Isn't Yasna a Caucasian American?

[vijayjohn]

Yes.