Racism

[mōdgethanc]

Sargon isn't alt-right but his meninism is surely as much a kind of idpol as any feminist's. It can't be a coincidence that the MRA backlash to feminism is almost entirely led by men.

[vijayjohn]

Holy shit is the left obsessed with labels.

And the right is not?

[Yasna]

I'm happy you agree. Do you not think this is indicative of Carl's larger ideological bent?

Yes.

So here's the question: is he naive (in a way that is useful to fascists) or a cryptofascist?

Third option: he's a polemicist who sometimes sacrifices facts to make a better attack. Is this useful to fascists? Potentially in some cases I guess?

Why are you making excuses for this? Linking to jihadwatch is unacceptable unless you're unaware of what it is or you're pointing out how deranged they are.

Having seen how reluctant the mainstream media has been to cover the topic of grooming gangs (Sargon's video is from 2014), I can understand how he might have had trouble getting some information from normal news sites. But I agree that it would have been better to not use it.

The video fits into a narrative that would have that:

1) Rape culture doesn't exist and sexual assaults happen less than claimed by feminism
2) Muslims do have a rape culture and commit sexual assaults more often than claimed by feminism

This is the infamous Islamophobic pseudofeminist two-step, where we're trying to defend women but only from the evil brown people who are the real sexists/assaulters. This is especially disgusting coming from someone who not only said "I wouldn't even rape you" to a women, but still defends the statement to this day.

He's right about rape culture in liberal democracies.
Are Liberal Democracies ‘Rape Cultures’?

The connection between Islam and rape is too subtle to do justice to here (cf. prevalence of the attitude that being raped is just cause for ostracisation), but I do think it's hyperbolic to say Muslims have a "rape culture".

But Sargon and others are absolutely right to ridicule the failure of UK society to speak up in a timely manner for the hundreds of girls raped by grooming gangs. One can scarcely imagine how great the outrage would have been if the rapists were 84% neonazis instead of 84% Muslims.

Because I think it accurately describes the online space he represents. He is towards the beginning of a radicalisation pipeline, which is why all sorts of fascists and racists love him -- just look at any of his comment sections or the endorsements I mentioned.

Are you sure you want to start judging people by the comment section of their videos?

I fully admit that Carl might be too dogmatic and arrogant, or too high on his own ideology, to realise the function his videos have. But that doesn't exactly make a great case in his favour.

A harsh critique of capitalism can function as a tool for anything from social democracy to communism. See the problem here?

In fact, I wouldn't be particularly bothered by a description of some of the progressives on RT as part of a socdem -> Stalinist radicalisation pipeline.

You've brought up these radicalization pipelines a few times now. Do you have any specific accounts of this happening? Like a case of someone going from a rough alignment with the beliefs of Jordan Peterson, to those of Sargon, and then to those of Richard Spencer, with Sargon himself acting as a pipeline? As you probably know, people in general become less radical as they grow older.

Another thing about communists is they don't tend to hide their views so much, if you ask them most of them time they'll just tell you what they are. Fascists on the other hand engage in all sorts of word games to avoid letting slip what they are because their primary interest is engaging in propaganda. So in general with fascists and fash-adjacent nationalists you have to be more careful with taking their claims about themselves at face value.

That's fair, but there's the constant danger of this hunt for "cryptofascists" devolving into McCarthyism.

Holy shit is the left obsessed with labels.

And the right is not?

Not to the same extent, no. You could actually take it as a compliment. The left has a stronger presence in academia, and academics naturally make more sophisticated efforts at categorization.

[Saim]

Are you sure you want to start judging people by the comment section of their videos?

Not purely based on their comments section. But in the context of the rest of their work? Of course.

A harsh critique of capitalism can function as a tool for anything from social democracy to communism. See the problem here?

I'm not talking about a single critique.

but I do think it's hyperbolic to say Muslims have a "rape culture".

I don't, just to be clear. But I don't trust anyone who massively overplays the incidence of rape and sexual assault committed by one ethnic or religious group and massively underplays cases committed by "their" group.

Also, telling a woman "I wouldn't even rape you" is unacceptable under any circumstances, and he still stands by the statement.

That's fair, but there's the constant danger of this hunt for "cryptofascists" devolving into McCarthyism.

I'm not in any sort of position to engage in McCarthyism, nor is anyone of my ideological persuasion.

You've brought up these radicalization pipelines a few times now. Do you have any specific accounts of this happening?

What kind of evidence would suffice? An analysis of how many people subscribed to Sargon are also subscribed to Black Pidgeon Speaks or TL:DR or whatever?

If by "accounts" you mean anecdotal evidence, then at least Spencer (as well as many many other alt-right figures, including ones that have been openly critical of him) thinks that Carl is a useful entry point, and in this hangout at least one nazi claimed that Carl put him on the path towards the alt right.

That's all circumstantial of course but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to prove this conclusively. In any case, whether Carl is technically a cryptofascist is not really my concern -- he is a massive racist, nationalist and misogynist and most of his content makes me want to vomit. So no, I'm not obsessed with labels.

As you probably know, people in general become less radical as they grow older.

I'm not sure what the relevance of this is.

[vijayjohn]

A video where people of various cultural backgrounds who happen to have somewhat dark skin talking about the kinds of discrimination they experienced and/or cultural attitudes regarding dark skin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76X4JvjpXug
A tour of a plantation near New Orleans and about the people that were enslaved there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArljJFUX8YE
And two videos about a woman (IIUC, two parts of the same show and in the order I've listed them) who learned that her mother had been passing as white her entire life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNiEBnOzgVw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJEOwn0EUVk

[Yasna]

I'm not talking about a single critique.

My observation scales.

I don't, just to be clear. But I don't trust anyone who massively overplays the incidence of rape and sexual assault committed by one ethnic or religious group and massively underplays cases committed by "their" group.

I encourage you to read up on grooming gangs. It's hard to overplay the scale of this atrocity.

Britain’s Grooming Gang Crisis

Also, telling a woman "I wouldn't even rape you" is unacceptable under any circumstances, and he still stands by the statement.

Agreed. I have no doubt he's trolling, but that doesn't excuse it.

I'm not in any sort of position to engage in McCarthyism, nor is anyone of my ideological persuasion.

You think the rampant false accusations of racism, sexism, fascism, etc. have no serious effect on people's professional and social lives?

If by "accounts" you mean anecdotal evidence, then at least Spencer (as well as many many other alt-right figures, including ones that have been openly critical of him) thinks that Carl is a useful entry point, and in this hangout at least one nazi claimed that Carl put him on the path towards the alt right.

I suppose that sort of thing does happen sometimes. I still think it's a weak criticism though. If Sargon is wrong about some things, I think it's 1000x more powerful to point out exactly how is he wrong rather than point to him being a potential radicalization pipeline in some nebulous cases. Moreover, I don't want to be deprived of views or information on either side of the political spectrum just because darker things lie further down the spectrum.

[linguoboy]

I'm not in any sort of position to engage in McCarthyism, nor is anyone of my ideological persuasion.

You think the rampant false accusations of racism, sexism, fascism, etc. have no serious effect on people's professional and social lives?

[vijayjohn]

I encourage you to read up on grooming gangs. It's hard to overplay the scale of this atrocity.

Britain’s Grooming Gang Crisis

In response, I encourage you to read this, this, and even this because it was forty-seven girls that were identified as victims, not hundreds as your source claims.

Moreover, I don't want to be deprived of views or information on either side of the political spectrum

Even when much of that information is demonstrably false?

[Saim]

I encourage you to read up on grooming gangs. It's hard to overplay the scale of this atrocity.

Britain’s Grooming Gang Crisis

[...]

Agreed. I have no doubt he's trolling, but that doesn't excuse it.

This is precisely my point: I do not trust anything someone has to say about any issues relating to sexual violence if they're prepared to say something like I wouldn't even rape you and then stand by it. Why do you think Carl cares so much about rapists and abusers who happen to be Muslim when he's so willing to undermine women's issues in other cases?

Let me put it this way: in Pakistan right-wingers also overhype the incidence of rape and sexual abuse in India in a nationalistic scoring game. That of course doesn't mean that rape and assault aren't a massive problem in India, they absolutely are! I just don't think any treatment of it given by Jamat-e-Islami is going to be particularly innocent.

In the same vein, I'm not going to say grooming gangs aren't a problem in the UK. As a leftist I'm not exactly a massive fan of the police or of liberal multiculturalism either. I just think that Carl's treatment of the issue is primarily used to push a xenophobic narrative.

You think the rampant false accusations of racism, sexism, fascism, etc. have no serious effect on people's professional and social lives?

If I had the power to ruin Carl's professional and social life I would be thrilled. Alas, I do not, so Carl's professional and social life remains intact. In fact, as far as I know he gets payed quite a lot for his garbage opinions.

I suppose that sort of thing does happen sometimes. I still think it's a weak criticism though.

It's not a criticism, it's a description of the sort of internet subculture that Carl participates in. It's an explanation of why someone would think of him as a cryptofascist or fash-adjacent.

If Sargon is wrong about some things, I think it's 1000x more powerful to point out exactly how is he wrong rather than point to him being a potential radicalization pipeline in some nebulous cases.

Good luck I guess?

[mōdgethanc]

As a leftist I'm not exactly a massive fan of liberal multiculturalism

Wait so do that make you a left-wing nationalist or how does this work?

If I had the power to ruin Carl's professional and social life I would be thrilled. Alas, I do not, so Carl's professional and social life remains intact. In fact, as far as I know he gets payed quite a lot for his garbage opinions.

But his free speech you regressive!!!

[vijayjohn]

As a leftist I'm not exactly a massive fan of liberal multiculturalism

Wait so do that make you a left-wing nationalist or how does this work?

I don't think he's saying he has anything against multiculturalism, just against liberal multiculturalism, but I don't know enough about that to tell you what the difference between those two actually is.

[vijayjohn]

I think I'll venture a guess, though. From what I can tell, it seems that "liberal multiculturalism" basically refers to the situation of immigrants in the West today, so I guess "I'm not exactly a massive fan of liberal multiculturalism" is just a way of pointing out the problems in the interactions between white people and immigrants in their countries. One of the problems in these interactions is also the title of this thread.

[mōdgethanc]

I was thinking it meant the melting pot idea vs. cultural protectionism. Like the leftist mirror image of the alt-right's obsession with ethnostates, but not authoritarian or based on racism.

[Lur]

I also don't know what liberal multiculturalism is

I also don't like the melting pot concept. It just seems an excuse to forcefully assimilate colonized peoples. I guess my attitude of de-Christianizing Europe or being defensive of minoritized languages in Europe also kinda clashes with that.

[Saim]

Vijay and Lur have already hinted at my reasons for not being particularly enamoured with liberal multiculturalism, but I'll add my own two cents. I'm not a left-nationalist because I don't seek to preserve any specific form of culture nor do I want cultures essentialised into discrete "nations", I believe in supporting diversity and pluralism for their own sake. I want there to be fluidity in identities and cultures, but I also want these cultural interactions to be non-hierarchical and for there to not be mass assimilation of "stateless" nation-groups or cultures -- my opposition to mass language endangerment is a big part of that. I do understand why some "stateless" nation-groups would want their own state given the context of a world of nation-states, and I may sometimes support secession as a lesser evil (compared to unionism) or as a practical solution, but I would never see it as an ideal solution.

I should also point out that in Australia at least some elements of multicultural discourse have been used to erase indigenous people, making them into just one of the different groups in Australia's melting pot (there are Chinese Australians, Italian Australians, Indigenous Australians...). I can't find it anymore but I remember the Australian Labor Party's 2010 or 2013 manifesto said something to the effect of "indigenous people need to be respected as part of Australia's heritage", which is not only a meaningless platitude but also effectively avoids the fact that indigenous peoples need sovereignty and dignity, not recognition as cultural museum pieces to be trotted out to play the didgeridoo for tourists every once in a while. When it comes to immigrants multicultural discourse often does seem to act as a sort of "soft assimilationism" (let's assimilate the kids but be nice to their parents in the meantime), although this is more understandable than when it's done to indigenous people or historical national minorities.

I also think that sometimes the Islamophobic critique of relativistic progressive "softness" on Muslims has a grain of truth in it (which is why I brought up my criticism of liberal multiculturalism in the context of Sargon's Muslim-baiting). When I see people calling the strict observation of gendered, religious-based hair taboos empowering, for example, I can't help but think of this as a bit of an overcorrection for Western Islamophobia. Often progressive(-ish) Westerners seem to ignore that Islamic societies have their own internal dynamics and struggles, with local feminists fighting for their right to not cover their hair; I personally sympathise with progressive and opposition groups in the Islamic world, as I do with struggles around the world. I would also argue, though, that Islamophobic currents in the West are far, far stronger and more prevalent than these well-intentioned overcorrections.

I'll just stress here that I'm not some weirdo Maoist who thinks that ethnic cleansing of "settlers" is justified or that "cultural appropriation" is inherently bad. I'm also of course happy I grew up under liberal-multicultural Australia and not the White Australia policy, despite the racism that still existed. Besides that I'm not so much against the stated goals of liberal multiculturalism in principle, I'm just not satisfied with "really existing" multiculturalism, as it were.

[md0]

When I see people calling the strict observation of gendered, religious-based hair taboos empowering, for example, I can't help but think of this as a bit of an overcorrection for Western Islamophobia.

On that, recently I read this piece, and honestly, I found it utterly pointless. Nothing in it helped me connect to the author's experience. And I'm someone who is against "militant Atheism" and/or "New Atheism".
How a Pilgrimage to Mecca Helped Me Embrace My Queer Muslim Identity

Often progressive(-ish) Westerners seem to ignore that Islamic societies have their own internal dynamics and struggles, with local feminists fighting for their right to not cover their hair; I personally sympathise with progressive and opposition groups in the Islamic world, as I do with struggles around the world.

I think we should accept that X culture's diaspora, and X culture's society in a region under their political control are in many ways, different cultures. Different experiences of oppression, different demands for liberation.
That doesn't mean anything goes, just that I can't eg cite Saudi Arabia's feminists to automatically reject a demand from US Muslim feminists for example.

[Lur]

I'll just stress here that I'm not some weirdo Maoist who thinks that ethnic cleansing of "settlers" is justified

I've never known what to think about this. It seems nobody wants to kill all the settlers (even though they might have such thoughts in a bout of anger, but people are people), but what is actually to be done seems to remain a mystery to me. And the "teach the settlers the language" seems to have worked in what, one country? And while this conversation happened, genocidal attempts and complete disdain are or were still going on... I don't know how some people can maintain a level head in that situation, frankly.

Lur - who doesn't want to move to Canada because they speak English and French and that's boring, and because of the very very very dumb reason of being white (but not in a self-flagellating way)

[linguoboy]

Lur - who doesn't want to move to Canada because they speak English and French and that's boring, and because of the very very very dumb reason of being white (but not in a self-flagellating way)

The Northwest Territories has eleven official languages: Chipewyan, Cree, English, French, Gwich’in, Inuinnaqtun, Inuktitut, Inuvialuktun, North Slavey, South Slavey and Tłįchǫ/Dogrib.

[Lur]

Lur - who doesn't want to move to Canada because they speak English and French and that's boring, and because of the very very very dumb reason of being white (but not in a self-flagellating way)

The Northwest Territories has eleven official languages: Chipewyan, Cree, English, French, Gwich’in, Inuinnaqtun, Inuktitut, Inuvialuktun, North Slavey, South Slavey and Tłįchǫ/Dogrib.

I know but I'd probably end up in Montreal or something like that Gotta rethink my attitude to French, maybe

[Saim]

Lur - who doesn't want to move to Canada because they speak English and French and that's boring, and because of the very very very dumb reason of being white (but not in a self-flagellating way)

The Northwest Territories has eleven official languages: Chipewyan, Cree, English, French, Gwich’in, Inuinnaqtun, Inuktitut, Inuvialuktun, North Slavey, South Slavey and Tłįchǫ/Dogrib.

[T]he NWT government only publishes laws and other documents in the territory's other official languages when the legislature asks it to. Furthermore, access to services in any language is limited to institutions and circumstances where there is a significant demand for that language or where it is reasonable to expect it given the nature of the services requested. In practical terms, English language services are universally available, and there is no guarantee that other languages, including French, will be used by any particular government service, except for the courts.