Racism

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linguoboy
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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2017-09-05, 15:59

C'mon, Vijay, it's perfectly reasonable to say that this country spent 500 years building and upholding an entire political, economic, and social order based on the superiority of the white race and the subjugation of anyone considered not to belong to it and dismantled that all in 50 years to the point where every aspect of it should be assumed totally free of racism until proven otherwise. Are you so brainwashed by the identity politics brigade that you can't see that?
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-05, 17:18

Oh right, I forgot that Breitbart is part of the identity politics brigade and our current president is capable of dismantling stuff in one-tenth of the time it took to build it up. :)

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Re: Racism

Postby Prowler » 2017-09-05, 18:50

Tbh, as an outsider, it seems to me that there's way more cases of successful non-white people in USA than in most of Europe. And I'm not talking about athletes and musicians but doctors, engineers, entrepreneurs, etc as well.

Now obviously USA has more non-whites than pretty much any European country does and maybe it being the largest economy in the world and a very capitalistic nation it makes it easier for someone to start up a business and achieve some success. But I dunno, it seems most blacks, Arabs, Indians, etc. in Europe work in low pay jobs or don't achieve much more than running small businesses such as restaurants and shops. And then you have the Gypsies which... well yeah. Is there anyone in USA as overwhelmingly despised as them to the point of many educated people wishing there was a final solution type of thing for them?

I don't view USA as a "white country", despite obviously having been founded by Europeans and being a Western country. I mean, the country is what, at this point? 35% non-white? FWIW, Michael Jordan, George Takei and Bill gates are all equally American to me. The only difference I see between them are their races. But they all have more in common with each other than either of them has with me.

Just my two cents. I'm probably missing something here, though. But hey, I'm an outsider. Ofc I won't know the whole deal.

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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2017-09-05, 19:40

Prowler wrote:And then you have the Gypsies which... well yeah. Is there anyone in USA as overwhelmingly despised as them to the point of many educated people wishing there was a final solution type of thing for them?

Muslims?

Prowler wrote:I don't view USA as a "white country", despite obviously having been founded by Europeans and being a Western country. I mean, the country is what, at this point? 35% non-white?

The Antebellum South was at least 40% nonwhite. What's your point?

Prowler wrote:FWIW, Michael Jordan, George Takei and Bill gates are all equally American to me. The only difference I see between them are their races. But they all have more in common with each other than either of them has with me.

George Takei was sent to live in internment camps during World War II on account of his Japanese ancestry. So the view really is very different from an ocean away.
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-05, 19:43

Prowler wrote:Tbh, as an outsider, it seems to me that there's way more cases of successful non-white people in USA than in most of Europe.

Maybe so, but for a nation of immigrants and self-proclaimed "melting pot" where the majority was never indigenous to begin with, I think "is this country more inclusive of immigrants than most of Europe?" is setting a pretty low bar. The history of the US just doesn't compare with any country in Europe.

Here in the US, when we go to school, IME it is hammered into our brains from a very young age that this country is one where people from anywhere in the world can seek (economic) opportunity, (political/personal) safety, and/or generally a better life, so we're easily shocked when we find out how false that is. Our media and our government try very hard to hide the uglier facts from the general population for the sake of this convenient narrative. These uglier facts often include things that are basically common knowledge about the US to much of the rest of the world.

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Re: Racism

Postby Prowler » 2017-09-05, 20:01

linguoboy wrote:
Prowler wrote:And then you have the Gypsies which... well yeah. Is there anyone in USA as overwhelmingly despised as them to the point of many educated people wishing there was a final solution type of thing for them?

Muslims?

While it's true Muslims are distrusted all over the West, I don't think you guys hate them more than Europeans in general hate Gyspies. Do most Muslims in USA live in trailers, extreme poverty and don't go to school?

linguoboy wrote:
Prowler wrote:And then you have the Gypsies which... well yeah. Is there anyone in USA as overwhelmingly despised as them to the point of many educated people wishing there was a final solution type of thing for them?


The Antebellum South was at least 40% nonwhite. What's your point?


That was in the time of slavery where blacks were n****** still(I censored it because I'm not sure if the word is allowed here). They didn't have rights or had any influence in politics and such. We're talking 2017 here. USA is no longer a country for white people only. At one point even Non-English Whites such as the Irish, Italians and Germans were mistreated, but nowadays USA isn't a country exclusive to descendants of Anglo Saxon Protestants anymore. Things change. I mean, sure most politicians and I suppose most judges are still Whit and obviously the culture mostly derives from European culture as does the language, but it's clearly not a nation exclusive for White people anymore. I view USA as a multi-ethnic nation myself. And yes, I know you don't have an official language on paper but English is widely considered THE language of the country and there's a lot of aversion by some people to Spanish speakers and there being signs and options available in Spanish

linguoboy wrote:George Takei was sent to live in internment camps during World War II on account of his Japanese ancestry. So the view really is very different from an ocean away.

Well that was a poor example. I honestly had no idea he had been interned tbh. Although I just used him and Michael Jordan as two examples of very well-known Black and Asian Americans, respectively. I didn't mean them literally. But yeah, perhaps George Takei would take offence to my remarks.

vijayjohn wrote:
Prowler wrote:Tbh, as an outsider, it seems to me that there's way more cases of successful non-white people in USA than in most of Europe.

Maybe so, but for a nation of immigrants and self-proclaimed "melting pot" where the majority was never indigenous to begin with, I think "is this country more inclusive of immigrants than most of Europe?" is setting a pretty low bar. The history of the US just doesn't compare with any country in Europe.

Here in the US, when we go to school, IME it is hammered into our brains from a very young age that this country is one where people from anywhere in the world can seek (economic) opportunity, (political/personal) safety, and/or generally a better life, so we're easily shocked when we find out how false that is. Our media and our government try very hard to hide the uglier facts from the general population for the sake of this convenient narrative. These uglier facts often include things that are basically common knowledge about the US to much of the rest of the world.

What about compared to other countries in the American continent or Australia and New Zealand? How do you say you fare?

Per example, from the little I've read about it, Brazil seems to have lots of race issues and it being a country with way more poverty than USA, I can see it.

I'ts hard to say which country is more racist than another. I don't know if it's fare to say that Americans are more or less racist than a certain European country. But I've always felt Americans were more race obsessed and conscious than Europeans. Ofc the media likes to exaggerate things but I see Americans talking about race and such often online, while Europeans usually talk more about differences in nationalities. That isn't saying we are race blind or anything and that the only thing we value is a person's passport, though.

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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2017-09-05, 20:21

Prowler wrote:While it's true Muslims are distrusted all over the West, I don't think you guys hate them more than Europeans in general hate Gyspies. Do most Muslims in USA live in trailers, extreme poverty and don't go to school?

Are these the best proxies available for measuring "hate"?

Prowler wrote:
The Antebellum South was at least 40% nonwhite. What's your point?

That was in the time of slavery where blacks were n****** still(I censored it because I'm not sure if the word is allowed here).

To many people in this country, they still are.

Prowler wrote:USA is no longer a country for white people only.

It was never a country exclusively for white people. Non-whites were always allowed to live here as long as they accepted their place in a racial hierarchy that clearly placed whites at the apex.

That's still the case today. The racial hierarchy is no longer explicitly written into law and it's not as harsh as it once was, but it still exists. As Vijay says, this is about the gap between what is promised by our laws and what is delivered in practice. This is still a place largely run by white people for the benefit of white people, the ability of POC to achieve success in a hostile environment notwithstanding.

Prowler wrote:Well that was a poor example. I honestly had no idea he had been interned tbh.

He's very vocal about it. In fact, he just starred in a musical based on his experiences.

Prowler wrote:I'ts hard to say which country is more racist than another. I don't know if it's fare to say that Americans are more or less racist than a certain European country. But I've always felt Americans were more race obsessed and conscious than Europeans.

I'm not interested in making comparisons like these. I'm interested in solving the issues we have in this country and chief among those is unequal treatment of people based on their perceived racial identities.

I'm just stating historical facts: The USA was founded on racial inequality, just like the countries around it. Our commitment to racial equality, such as it is, is relatively recent and shallow and we are nowhere close to dismantling what our ancestors built up over centuries.

I mean, for fuck's sake, read up about Joe Arpaio, who embodies absolutely everything wrong with our present justice system. This is the man that the POTUS pardoned before he could even be sentenced. The message was clear: Violating the Constitutional rights of Latinx is a crime with no consequences, so have it.
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Re: Racism

Postby Car » 2017-09-05, 20:24

Prowler wrote:I'ts hard to say which country is more racist than another. I don't know if it's fare to say that Americans are more or less racist than a certain European country. But I've always felt Americans were more race obsessed and conscious than Europeans. Ofc the media likes to exaggerate things but I see Americans talking about race and such often online, while Europeans usually talk more about differences in nationalities. That isn't saying we are race blind or anything and that the only thing we value is a person's passport, though.

Actually, some British (mostly, or even all, Englishmen) members in another forum I'm a member of have said those exact words ("Americans are obsessed with race") a couple of times, also when comparing the situation of blacks in the US to the one in the UK.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Racism

Postby Prowler » 2017-09-05, 20:39

linguoboy wrote:
Prowler wrote:While it's true Muslims are distrusted all over the West, I don't think you guys hate them more than Europeans in general hate Gyspies. Do most Muslims in USA live in trailers, extreme poverty and don't go to school?

Are these the best proxies available for measuring "hate"?


There is no perfect proxy, but the fact Gypsies have been despised ever since setting foot in Europe and their situation has barely improved, if at all, in all of these years, I think it's safe to say they're lower in the totem pole than Muslims are in USA. But yes, I agree there's lots of Islamophobia in both USA and Europe.

linguoboy wrote:To many people in this country, they still are.


But not to the majority, right? And every time a White celebrity or politician is caught saying that word their reputation gets damaged beyond repair a lot of times. It doesn't seem like USA glosses over this part of their history much, tbh. Everyone has heard of MLK and the Civil Rights.

Black Americans have influenced American culture a lot. jazz music, blues music, funk music, rap music and even did a lot for rock n roll(yes, I know Elvis is the one who gets the the credit for it). And there's several black politicians. They're more assimilated into American culture than they were in the 1950s, per example. Tbh, lots of the exposure people in Asia and homogeneous European countries have to black people comes from American media... which isn't always a good thing.

linguoboy wrote:I'm not interested in making comparisons like these. I'm interested in solving the issues we have in this country and chief among those is unequal treatment of people based on their perceived racial identities.

I'm just stating historical facts: The USA was founded on racial inequality, just like the countries around it. Our commitment to racial equality, such as it is, is relatively recent and shallow and we are nowhere close to dismantling what our ancestors built up over centuries.

I mean, for fuck's sake, read up about Joe Arpaio, who embodies absolutely everything wrong with our present justice system. This is the man that the POTUS pardoned before he could even be sentenced. The message was clear: Violating the Constitutional rights of Latinx is a crime with no consequences, so have it.

Well, obviously I wasn't trying to make this a competition and divert attention from USA's own problems. Ofc they need to be addressed. Things don't just change overnight You don't just sweep lots of history under the rug. Maybe it will take a few generations for situation to improve there for some groups of people

Yes your country was founded by racists as were other former European colonies. Tbh lots of Americans idealise their founding fathers a lot, but I guess it's easy to see your own historical figures as Gods or close to it.

I'll read that later. USA's justice system never seemed like a good example for most nations so I'm not surprised.

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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2017-09-05, 21:06

Prowler wrote:
linguoboy wrote:To many people in this country, they still are.

But not to the majority, right? And every time a White celebrity or politician is caught saying that word their reputation gets damaged beyond repair a lot of times.

Name six.

Michael Richards is still working. Don Imus was barely out of work for six months. Donald Sterling no longer has a basketball team, just $3 billion and a lucrative property business.

I think it's particularly instructive to compare the fates of white people who have been caught spouting racism to the fates of POC who have called out racism--people like Colin Kaepernick or Munroe Bergdorf. The latter have suffered lasting damage to their careers and reputations.

Prowler wrote:It doesn't seem like USA glosses over this part of their history much, tbh. Everyone has heard of MLK and the Civil Rights.

Everyone has heard a highly sanitised version of MLK and the Civil Rights movement: He was just a nice guy who preached nonviolence and all the nice white people were so impressed by him that they turned right around and give Black people their rights. You don't hear the quotes where he disparages white moderates and sympathises with Black rioters. You certainly don't hear how lukewarm white people across the country were in their support for Black equality.

Prowler wrote:Black Americans have influenced American culture a lot. jazz music, blues music, funk music, rap music and even did a lot for rock n roll(yes, I know Elvis is the one who gets the the credit for it).

Again, we've always been happy to have POC perform for us--and to steal from their culture when it appeals to us. To quote Kyle Baker in Why I Hate Saturn, "Look, Black music is in, Black culture is in, but Black people will never be in."

linguoboy wrote:Well, obviously I wasn't trying to make this a competition and divert attention from USA's own problems. Ofc they need to be addressed. Things don't just change overnight You don't just sweep lots of history under the rug. Maybe it will take a few generations for situation to improve there for some groups of people

Time alone is not going to solve these problems. What it will take is for a significant proportion of white people in the USA to acknowledge the racism inherent in this society and take active steps to dismantle it. I've been waiting all my life for racists to just die off--but how many greybeards did you see marching in Charlottesville? These were young people, barely older than my nephews, openly dedicating themselves to the cause of making sure people like them stay on top indefinitely.
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-06, 1:51

Prowler wrote:They didn't have rights or had any influence in politics and such.

That's not quite true, actually. Some slaves were freed as a reward for military service. Some others managed to buy their freedom. A tiny minority of freed slaves even bought slaves themselves, although in most cases, they used this privilege to buy their own relatives so they could free them later. People of mixed heritage often discriminated against black people in much the same way as white people did, even if they were subject to discrimination themselves.
What about compared to other countries in the American continent or Australia and New Zealand? How do you say you fare?

We're obviously better off than other countries in the American continent because a) we were the first country in the world to gain independence from a European colonial power and b) we screwed a lot of the other countries over, either by starting devastating wars in them or by occupying them. I don't think we're hugely different from Australia or New Zealand, though.
Per example, from the little I've read about it, Brazil seems to have lots of race issues and it being a country with way more poverty than USA, I can see it.

We have lots of race issues, too, y'know.
I don't know if it's fare to say that Americans are more or less racist than a certain European country.

I don't think it's a question of "more or less racist," to be honest. I think a lot of countries, including both the US and probably every European country, have serious issues with racism; it's just that the nature of that racism can be completely different.

You mentioned Roma earlier, and you know what? We have Roma, too, but very few of us realize they exist, even if they're in our own hometowns. The reason for this is the fact that there are people here from all over the world, especially in our cities, which makes it very easy for a minority to become invisible, and that's what's happened to American Roma. Roma in the Americas in general often try to use this invisibility to their advantage in the hopes of avoiding discrimination, but it isn't foolproof; very often, people find out their ethnicity anyway and then subject them to discrimination. Discrimination against Romani people in the Americas may not involve pogroms per se, but it can take a variety of injurious forms: termination of employment, unjustified police arrests, impossibility of achieving tenure, public scandal, etc. In fact, this invisibility makes it more difficult for Romani people here to organize politically in their own self-interest or to see any efforts made in addressing discrimination against them when it does happen. It's a completely different situation from what you see in Europe; rather than, say, mobs of people physically attacking Roma, what we see in the US is the effective denial of an entire ethnicity's own self-identity, which I find is not necessarily better.

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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2017-09-06, 23:28

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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-07, 7:05

Oh look, it's a black libertarian economist! WOW I am so overwhelmed and I'll shut up about racism for the rest of my life because I didn't know minorities can actually be right-wing and act against their own self-interests even though people acting against their own self-interests is pretty much what the Republican Party has been relying on for decades in this country and I've seen people of my own ethnicity do this throughout my life. :roll:

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Re: Racism

Postby linguoboy » 2017-09-07, 14:44

vijayjohn wrote:Oh look, it's a black libertarian economist! WOW I am so overwhelmed and I'll shut up about racism for the rest of my life because I didn't know minorities can actually be right-wing and act against their own self-interests even though people acting against their own self-interests is pretty much what the Republican Party has been relying on for decades in this country and I've seen people of my own ethnicity do this throughout my life. :roll:

If memory serves, he's also a supply-sider even though trickle-down economics has been about as conclusively disproven as any macroeconomic theory can be.

He also seems to suffer somewhat from TPS (Total Pundit Syndrome), wading into the waters of history and social science without any a coherent methodological approach.
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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-07, 15:27

linguoboy wrote:If memory serves, he's also a supply-sider

Yep.
He writes from a libertarian conservative perspective, advocating supply-side economics.

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Re: Racism

Postby Yasna » 2017-09-08, 20:23

linguoboy wrote:If memory serves, he's also a supply-sider even though trickle-down economics has been about as conclusively disproven as any macroeconomic theory can be.

I'll let Sowell respond in his own words, but personally I think supply-side economics in the narrow sense (tax cuts lead to increased tax revenue) I think you're referring to has shown itself to not be effective in the circumstances it has been applied in during the past few decades. That said, I think Sowell has some great insights, and often successfully challenges conventional wisdom.

"The phrase “trickle down” often comes up in discussions of tax policies. Historically, tax revenues have in a number of instances gone up when tax rates have been reduced. But any proposal by economists or others to cut tax rates, including reducing the tax rates on higher incomes or on capital gains, can lead to accusations that those making such proposals must believe that benefits should be given to the wealthy in general or to business in particular, in order that these benefits will eventually “trickle down” to the masses of ordinary people. But no recognized economist of any school of thought has ever had any such theory or made any such proposal. It is a straw man. It cannot be found in even the most voluminous and learned histories of economic theories.

What is sought by those who advocate lower rates of taxation or other reductions of government’s role in the economy is not the transfer of existing wealth to higher income earners or businesses but the creation of additional wealth when businesses are less hampered by government controls or by increasing government appropriation of that additional wealth under steeply progressive taxation laws. Whatever the merits or demerits of this view, this is the argument that is made – and which is not confronted, but evaded, by talk of a non-existent “trickle-down” theory.

More fundamentally, economic processes work in the directly opposite way from that depicted by those who imagine that profits first benefit business owners and that benefits only belatedly trickle down to workers.

When an investment is made, whether to build a railroad or to open a new restaurant, the first money is spent hiring people to do the work. Without that, nothing happens. Even when one person decides to operate a store or hamburger stand without employees, that person must first pay somebody to deliver the goods that are going to be sold. Money goes out first to pay expenses and then comes back as profits later – if at all. The high rate of failure of new businesses makes painfully clear that there is nothing inevitable about the money coming back.

Even with successful and well-established businesses, years may elapse between the initial investment and the return of earnings. From the time when an oil company begins spending money to explore for petroleum to the time when the first gasoline resulting from that exploration comes out of a pump at a filling station, a decade may have passed. In the meantime, all sorts of employees have been paid — geologists, engineers, refinery workers, and truck drivers for example. It is only afterwards that profits begin coming in. Only then are there any capital gains to tax. The real effect of a reduction in the capital gains tax is that it opens the prospect of greater future net profits and thereby provides incentives to make current investments that create current employment.

In short, the sequence of payments is directly the opposite of what is assumed by those who talk about a “trickle-down” theory. The workers must be paid first and then the profits flow upward later – if at all."

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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-09, 19:49

Yeah, no shit, hiring workers means you're supposed to pay them. All you have to do to know that a) this is not always done, b) workers are not always treated fairly, and c) people who want less government control do often seek to benefit themselves is to look at Donald Chump not paying his taxes, exploiting his workers, and withholding their salaries.

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Re: Racism

Postby Prowler » 2017-09-09, 23:47

linguoboy wrote:Everyone has heard a highly sanitised version of MLK and the Civil Rights movement: He was just a nice guy who preached nonviolence and all the nice white people were so impressed by him that they turned right around and give Black people their rights. You don't hear the quotes where he disparages white moderates and sympathises with Black rioters. You certainly don't hear how lukewarm white people across the country were in their support for Black equality.

History is written by winners and heroes are always made saints out of them. Not surprised. Also, I think many have heard of MLK being a plagiarist and cheating on his wife. Malcolm X doesn't seem to be considered a saint, however.

Remember when Nelson Mandela died and the media all over the world was saying how he was a great man and all, overlooking his terrorist attacks in the past? Well history isn't black or white(no pun intended), but when you fight for a good cause people are willing to overlook your flaws even if they're quite big flaws.

As for racist celebrities getting their reputation damaged, well Michael Richards hasn't exactly had a stellar career since Seinfeld ended, so I guess in that case the Laugh Factory incident actually helped putting him back on the map again, now that I think about it. :lol:

Mel Gibson and especially Hulk Hogan have gotten a lot of flack when they got caught saying racist things, although Mel Gibson can use the "I was drunk!" excuse. And I dunno how the hell gawker got access to a very old Hogan recording. WWE even removed Hogan from their website at the time. Didn't Hogan then drop an Atomic leg Drop on gawker anyway?

linguoboy wrote:Again, we've always been happy to have POC perform for us--and to steal from their culture when it appeals to us. To quote Kyle Baker in Why I Hate Saturn, "Look, Black music is in, Black culture is in, but Black people will never be in."


They're viewed on a more positive light these days than they were 30-40 years ago. For the record, I don't consider USA some paradise for non-white people where they won't find any barriers or racism, but I still believe they have it better than there than in many, if not most European countries... well but maybe the bar isn't being set too high.

Btw, how do you feel about Affirmative Action? I've always heard of it but don't know exactly how one applies or how it's implemented.

linguoboy wrote:Time alone is not going to solve these problems. What it will take is for a significant proportion of white people in the USA to acknowledge the racism inherent in this society and take active steps to dismantle it. I've been waiting all my life for racists to just die off--but how many greybeards did you see marching in Charlottesville? These were young people, barely older than my nephews, openly dedicating themselves to the cause of making sure people like them stay on top indefinitely.


You've touched an interesting point there. It seems to be borderline common belief by society that older people are more racist than younger people and that racism will die out as older generations die off... but what about all of those baby boomers who fought for Civil Rights in USA in the 50s-60s? Surely they haven't suddenly become bitter old racist people. Not to mention the more extreme racists, the ones likely to join in neo nazi groups and such are usually younger people. older people don't have the energy or the time for that and it's not as easy to radicalise older people since they're not as easy to influence as younger people are.

I think older generations tend to be more vocal about their prejudices and show that prejudice at less appropriate times while younger people tend to hide it better. Older people tend to be a bit like children in this respect and have more trouble filtering themselves. Also, old people get more of a pass to make prejudiced remarks since people are less likely to challenge or confront them. Not to mention many old people didn't have access to very good education and thus their ignorance is considered somewhat acceptable by society.

Perhaps I know a lot of prejudiced people around the age of 20-30 but I don't know how they think because I don't ask them nor are they open about it.

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Re: Racism

Postby vijayjohn » 2017-09-10, 3:08

Prowler wrote:Also, I think many have heard of MLK being a plagiarist and cheating on his wife.

This is literally the first time I have ever heard of either of those things.
Malcolm X doesn't seem to be considered a saint, however.

No, because he was accused of promoting violence.
Remember when Nelson Mandela died and the media all over the world was saying how he was a great man and all, overlooking his terrorist attacks in the past?

What terrorist attacks?
when you fight for a good cause people are willing to overlook your flaws even if they're quite big flaws.

Some people are, but it depends which ones you ask. For example, Mohandas Karamchand "Mahatma" Gandhi has a much less fraught reputation outside India than he has ever had inside. During his lifetime, he alienated quite a few people, including the main author of the Constitution and many other big political figures who are now all considered patriots along with Gandhi despite their sharp conflicts of interest, which are too easily glossed over. Even his own son admits that Gandhi did not help improve the situation of the Dalits as much as he could have. All of my sister-in-law's dad's friends seem to hate Gandhi, even going so far as to assert, rather absurdly, that he did nothing for India.
They're viewed on in a more positive light these days than they were 30-40 years ago. For the record, I don't consider USA some paradise for non-white people where they won't find any barriers or racism, but I still believe they have it better than there than in many, if not most European countries... well but maybe the bar isn't being set too high.

Btw, how do you feel about Affirmative Action? I've always heard of it but don't know exactly how one applies or how it's implemented.

How one applies it? I don't know, but I can tell you that it's been highly successful in India already.

What affirmative action basically does is to provide certain opportunities (job opportunities, opportunities for university education, etc.) to groups of people that have historically been excluded from them. This ends up being beneficial not only for the historically excluded group but also for everyone else as it gives a lot of qualified people a chance to make their own contributions to careers they otherwise would never even have been considered for. Unfortunately, some people also use it (sometimes without even realizing it) as a scapegoat when they're not part of said group but are having trouble finding a job/university admission/whatever.

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Re: Racism

Postby Johanna » 2017-09-12, 17:48

Prowler wrote:For the record, I don't consider USA some paradise for non-white people where they won't find any barriers or racism, but I still believe they have it better than there than in many, if not most European countries... well but maybe the bar isn't being set too high.

I think the attitudes aren't necessarily worse in the US, but in general I think that people of African descent have it easier in Europe, at least Western Europe.

For one, there is no such thing as DWB ("driving while black") in Northern Europe, and where black people are more likely to be pulled over, at least they won't get shot more often than whites or other people of colour.

We also don't have black ghettos the way some American cities have, at all, and even socially vulnerable areas with a lot of immigrants working menial jobs or live on welfare don't even come close. For example, in the US there are so-called food deserts without any kind of decent supermarkets that you can get to without a car, and in poor areas most residents can't afford one, so they only have access to small convenience stores that don't sell much fresh produce, if any. Here you usually have a couple of small shops that sell Middle-Eastern or South-East Asian stuff, plus a supermarket nearby where you can get hold of fresh fruit and veggies, or you find at the very least a medium-sized supermarket a few bus or tram stops away.

You're much less isolated in our socially vulnerable areas too, for the simple fact that we have decent public transport.
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