ISIS

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Ludwig Whitby
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ISIS

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-09-27, 13:07

We already have a thread dedicated to the civil war in Syria, but I think that the Islamic State deserves a thread of it own.

I'll begin with the way ISIS is understood and talked about in Europe. To us they are terrorists, savages, reactionaries and crazy people who have brought Syria and Iraq back to the medieval dark ages, not that we expect anything better from Muslims. Well, I've got a slightly different take on this.I think that ISIS has a modern ideology inspired in part by the modern Western ideologies.

Nationalism, which originated in Western Europe isn't compatible with Islam, per se. According to Islam, all Muslims (if we disregard different denominations) are brothers. All Muslims are one nation. Accepting Western nationalism meant fighting Islam, reducing its power. Some countries, like Turkey, have managed to achieve that. But why should Muslims accept Western nationalism? Seriously, why?

Why not adjust it to their civilization? If there is only one nation, the nation of Islam, why shouldn't nationalists in Islamic countries be Islamists? This is exactly what ISIS is doing. They have accepted European totalitarianism, fascism and nationalism and made them islamic! This is not a throwback to the European Middle Ages, it is a throwback to the European 20th century! Which wasn't that long ago, actually...(Don't click the following links!) Genocide, public executions and fighting against women's liberation all happened in the civilized Central Europe less than a 100 years ago.

And just like fascists and nazists were popular in their time because they brought law and order to their countries and a newfound pride and meaning to their population, I'm afraid that ISIS can also achieve a considerable popularity, actually. That is what makes them most dangerous. The Iranian Islamic Revolution failed to send shockwaves around the world because its leaders were Shia, the minority within the Islamic World. What about an Islamic Revolution carried out by Sunnis? Arabs no less! The future of Islam is as uncertain as ever.

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Re: ISIS

Postby TeneReef » 2014-09-27, 15:27

Syrian Woman Wears Hidden Camera to Reveal Life Under ISIS Rule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TkuAIKoI28

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Re: ISIS

Postby Meera » 2014-10-02, 5:59

That video is so eerie and scary.
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Re: ISIS

Postby Varislintu » 2014-10-02, 8:53

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Well, I've got a slightly different take on this.I think that ISIS has a modern ideology inspired in part by the modern Western ideologies.

Nationalism, which originated in Western Europe isn't compatible with Islam, per se. According to Islam, all Muslims (if we disregard different denominations) are brothers. All Muslims are one nation. Accepting Western nationalism meant fighting Islam, reducing its power. Some countries, like Turkey, have managed to achieve that. But why should Muslims accept Western nationalism? Seriously, why?

Why not adjust it to their civilization? If there is only one nation, the nation of Islam, why shouldn't nationalists in Islamic countries be Islamists? This is exactly what ISIS is doing. They have accepted European totalitarianism, fascism and nationalism and made them islamic! This is not a throwback to the European Middle Ages, it is a throwback to the European 20th century! Which wasn't that long ago, actually...(Don't click the following links!) Genocide, public executions and fighting against women's liberation all happened in the civilized Central Europe less than a 100 years ago.

And just like fascists and nazists were popular in their time because they brought law and order to their countries and a newfound pride and meaning to their population, I'm afraid that ISIS can also achieve a considerable popularity, actually. That is what makes them most dangerous. The Iranian Islamic Revolution failed to send shockwaves around the world because its leaders were Shia, the minority within the Islamic World. What about an Islamic Revolution carried out by Sunnis? Arabs no less! The future of Islam is as uncertain as ever.


Well, sure. I really can't claim to be any type of expert when it comes to politics and the Middle-East, but on a gut-feeling level I see that in it as well.

Minus the super-sarcastic tone about """"civilised"""" Europe. :lol:
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Re: ISIS

Postby Babelfish » 2014-10-03, 20:00

There is some difference though IMHO, in that ISIS imposes its specific interpretation of Islam on its subjects with such harsh violence, which is already making it an enemy in the eyes of many Muslims - in principle, everyone belonging to a different sect or just less devout (not to mention non-Muslims of course)... Of course totalitarian regimes in the 20th century also controlled their subjects with violence and crashed all opposition, but I don't remember something equivalent to executing people for not praying 5 times a day or not growing their beard long enough, like under ISIS as well as the Taliban in Afghanistan at the time or the Islamic Courts in Somalis. I'm not saying either of these is better than the other, just that this kind of Islamic rule aims to control every aspect of daily life, much more strongly than the totalitarian European regimes.
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Re: ISIS

Postby linguoboy » 2014-10-03, 20:07

Babelfish wrote:Of course totalitarian regimes in the 20th century also controlled their subjects with violence and crashed all opposition, but I don't remember something equivalent to executing people for not praying 5 times a day or not growing their beard long enough

Sounds a lot like what happened to the Old Believers from the 17th-19th centuries, however.
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Re: ISIS

Postby TeneReef » 2014-10-03, 21:16

BREAKING NEWS: British aid worker Alan Henning beheaded by ISIS brute 'Jihadi John'... who threatens to kill US war veteran next

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3F7Qoob3d
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Re: ISIS

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-10-05, 10:42

Babelfish wrote:There is some difference though IMHO, in that ISIS imposes its specific interpretation of Islam on its subjects with such harsh violence, which is already making it an enemy in the eyes of many Muslims - in principle, everyone belonging to a different sect or just less devout (not to mention non-Muslims of course)... Of course totalitarian regimes in the 20th century also controlled their subjects with violence and crashed all opposition, but I don't remember something equivalent to executing people for not praying 5 times a day or not growing their beard long enough, like under ISIS as well as the Taliban in Afghanistan at the time or the Islamic Courts in Somalis. I'm not saying either of these is better than the other, just that this kind of Islamic rule aims to control every aspect of daily life, much more strongly than the totalitarian European regimes.

Islam itself provides rules for almost every single aspect of daily life, unlike the modern European ideologies. It makes sense that they'd punish even such silly offences, as they want to be seen as consistent. Now, I haven't heard about such offences being punishable by death, though, so I can't comment further. What I have seen is a documentary by VICE where those who commited, what are for us, non-crimes like swearing in public or alcohol-related offences get incarcerated and whipped.

ISIS has made many enemies within the Islamic world not only because of their strict ideology, but more importantly because they managed to make oil cheaper by flooding the black market with it.

Varislintu wrote:Minus the super-sarcastic tone about """"civilised"""" Europe. :lol:

:)

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Re: ISIS

Postby md0 » 2014-10-24, 5:49

What I don't understand is whether it's the severity of Sharia-enforced punishments are the issue, or that those punishments even exist.

Being whipped for dressing "immodestly" is not that far away from living in a culture where the way you dress (or even the way you look) is used to justify the harm other people cause to you (be it women being told they deserved being raped, or teenage boys of minority heritage being shot dead first and then having their guilt examined).
Sharia is just state-enforced fundamentalism, while in the West he mostly have to deal with state-tolerated fundamentalism which is either committed by private groups, or the lowest levels of the state (eg civil servants and teachers). The severity and the mechanism is different, but it's still the same thing: disregard for individual rights.

I don't feel like saying "beheading is too much for being an unbeliever, the maximum sentence should be systematic exclusion from the societal privileges" (the kind of thing that happens a bit more west than Syria).
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Re: ISIS

Postby Varislintu » 2014-10-24, 7:11

I just can't help wondering how bad the muslims that left Finland to fight for ISIS must have perceived their existense here if a fundamentalist religious state seemed like a brilliant affair to them.

Or is it that they somehow thought they would themselves be so privileged in that system (for example male, correct ethnicity, true believers, truly pious) that they would themselves never be punished by that system?
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Re: ISIS

Postby languagepotato » 2014-11-01, 10:31

i'm a muslim and my view of these people is that they're a bunch of wackdoodles misusing islam.
for me, these nutjobs stand to islam how the kkk stands to christianity
technically they are, but i can not see at all how they get their teachings from the scripture of the religion they are affiiated with
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Re: ISIS

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-11-01, 14:13

Varislintu wrote:I just can't help wondering how bad the muslims that left Finland to fight for ISIS must have perceived their existense here if a fundamentalist religious state seemed like a brilliant affair to them.

Or is it that they somehow thought they would themselves be so privileged in that system (for example male, correct ethnicity, true believers, truly pious) that they would themselves never be punished by that system?

Europe has a deficit of (collective) meaning, strong values and common goals as well as faith/spirituality. Those Finnish Muslims probably had a decent life, they had enough money to get by, but their lives were lacking something important, their lives were empty and meaningless.

ISIS gives them a sense of being a part of something bigger than them. It gives them a feeling of doing something important, sacred even. They actually manage to fully believe in their cause, something the skeptical and satire-plagued Europe isn't able to do. When you're in that mode of thinking there is no suffering that's too dreadful to you. On the contrary you might even seek suffering, because even suffering is now enjoyable!

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Re: ISIS

Postby Babelfish » 2014-11-01, 17:48

languagepotato wrote:for me, these nutjobs stand to islam how the kkk stands to christianity
Hit the spot!
I do feel, however, that unlike ISIS, the KKK was either denounced strongly and unanimously by religious leaders (according to the Wikipedia article; I haven't delved into it), or the religious leaders have much less influence in the western world, or both. ISIS, like Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, the Islamic Courts etc don't seem to have that much opposition. That feeling might be wrong, though.
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Re: ISIS

Postby linguoboy » 2014-11-02, 1:38

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Re: ISIS

Postby languagepotato » 2015-06-29, 19:51

So, they attacked a mosque on a friday during ramadan.... That's pretty much the most unislamic thing one can do.
i already said that they're wackdoodles, this emphasizes my point. the christian equivalent would be attacking a church on sunday on christmas.
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Re: ISIS

Postby Marah » 2015-06-30, 10:22

languagepotato wrote:So, they attacked a mosque on a friday during ramadan.... That's pretty much the most unislamic thing one can do.
i already said that they're wackdoodles, this emphasizes my point. the christian equivalent would be attacking a church on sunday on christmas.

Isn't it because they don't view you as Muslims since you don't share their interpretation of the Quran?
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Re: ISIS

Postby TeneReef » 2015-08-07, 0:20

ISIS threatens to kill Croatian Tomislav Salopek in Egypt in latest video

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Egypt.html
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Re: ISIS

Postby TeneReef » 2015-08-12, 12:17

Isis claims beheading of Croatian hostage
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-claims-be ... ek-1515171

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Re: ISIS

Postby lähettiläs » 2015-09-25, 16:28

Varislintu wrote:I just can't help wondering how bad the muslims that left Finland to fight for ISIS must have perceived their existense here if a fundamentalist religious state seemed like a brilliant affair to them.

They are misguided in faith, misled by satan, but I can empatise for them even as Shite because Finland's many systems have prejudice against Sunnis. Consider the amount of Shites in proportion with the many more Sunnis, then look at news or in discussion forums. Experiment with it yourself, search on Google for Sunni or Shite on Finnish sites and everything you will find is stereotype about Sunni violence and rape and terrorism. They will think ISIS is the good guy and everyone else is the bad guys, they will think their situation is whatsoever the same in Syria and Iraq as in Finland because they stagnate their own circles so much they forget Sunnis are the majority. They hear there is the Shite majority in Iraq and Iran, they see the propaganda of the evil Iran in the news all the time, it isn't unnatural that they forget these differences when they have no relationships with Shites. If they have no relationships with Shites, they forget that Shites experience more prejudice than Sunnis and they will oppress Shites because they believe that Shites oppress them, that Sunnis are oppressed by Shites when in reality Sunnis are oppressed by non-religious people and supported by Christians when Shites are oppressed by Christians, non-religious people and Sunnis for different stereotypes. It's a sincere embarrassment to confess there is a national conspiracy against Sunnis, you can see it everywhere but its development rooted from the reality of the Sunni oppression of the Shites and non-religious people in every country with Sunni majority. The Sunnis of Finland forget that all Muslims are the minority in Finland. They develop a conspiracy theory to explain their prejudice and it becomes a cloud in their head that keeps God away from their mind to let satan instead. They forget faith is the effect, not the cause. Nobody cares if another person believes or doesn't unless he feels threatened by that person... However most Sunnis are threatened by everything because they secretly question their faith and make it up with questioning the faith of others. ISIS doesn't punish "false believers" for their false beliefs but their *own* false beliefs. They forget that it's healthy to question their own faith and that God tests faithful people the most, instead they think questioning faith is questioning life. They connect faith and life until inseparability, neglecting millions that don't have any faith but live happy lives even so. So they will explain this "inconsistence" with God's mercy and volunteer to heighten themselves above God in the belief that they know better than God who deserves to live and who deserves to die... They deny it being so but it is so, or why else would they try to "fix" the world by "relieving" it of their own interpretation of who are false believers? If they had true faith in their own beliefs, they wouldn't kill anybody but wait for God to kill them if it's the justice they believe in... They don't believe their own ideology. ISIS is unfortunate effect of situations that prejudice against mandatory questioning faith and presence of confederance from politic atmospheres of anarchy and satanic propaganda.
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