linguoboy wrote:That was 40 years ago, however. What reason(s) do you have for believing this would still be the case today? (Moreover, we don't know that he would've been denied tenure even then had his Romani background become known, only that two faculty members thought it would.)
He's also been discriminated against for his ethnicity in academia after he got tenure and has said that he has experienced racial discrimination in academia in at least one interview. I don't know what's happened since I graduated, but this continued while I was there. Furthermore, Thomas Acton was kicked out of his office even though he isn't even Romani, and Adrian Marsh was kicked out of the department where he worked with a master's but his work was published as a dissertation several years later.
Babelfish wrote:That's weird (and disgusting) - I don't know much about these events you describe, just that it is quite well known (at least in Israel) that the Nazis persecuted Roma, homosexuals and political dissidents quite like they treated the Jews, although perhaps not as vehemently. We learnt about it at school IIRC.
I learnt it at school, as a side note and then it was all about the Jews, which is a very good way to make the impression that it wasn't that bad for the other groups, while you can still hide behind the fact that you have mentioned it.
It's the same here; in fact, I think that's how it is everywhere. People other than the Jews are mentioned
as victims, but only the Jewish part is really ever discussed.
The number of Romani people was not as big as the number of Jews in Europe to begin with, so it's not surprising that the Jewish victims were the greatest in number. However, I would say the persecution was every bit as vehement as the persecution of Jews, perhaps even more so. Only they and Jews were targeted for extermination in the Final Solution, and over half of the Romani population in Nazi Europe was destroyed by the end of the war.
Sweden kind of has a stake in burying the whole thing though, we like to see ourselves as open-minded and tolerant,
All of that is true of the US, too, even though the Holocaust did not even take place here.
so the fact that Roma in this country faced severe state-sanctioned discrimination for a long time even after the war had ended doesn't sit well with that. Especially not since the common narrative is that there were things going on before 1939 that were 'questionable', but that war made the sinners see the error of their ways and then everyone moved on, and we became this fair and enlightened country.
Romani people continue to face discrimination everywhere; even here in Austin, though this is not well-known at all, if any Romani person in a given district is suspected of a crime, anyone
from the community may be arrested. And yet the narrative in schools here is also that everything was resolved after the war, when it really wasn't.
Heck, if a Roma person found their way to Sweden during or just after World War 2, they were sent back immediately, even if the person in question was a death camp survivor, while at the same time there was at least one organisation (run by a member of the royal family) who went and fetched a large number of Jewish survivors in order to treat them in Sweden. There were actually one or two cases of Roma survivors pretending to be Jews for that very reason.
Interesting, and useful information. Thanks!
Hi. Could you please not use that word? Thanks.
Koko wrote: I wonder exactly what started the hatred towards them: it seems to have just grown from nothing.
The first Romani people to arrive in Europe were foreigners of Indian descent who Europeans had no previous contact with and did not recognize. Europe in the Middle Ages (which was when they arrived) already had a long history of xenophobia. Even the Jews, who Christian Europeans had been in contact with for thousands of years and owed their own religion to, were persecuted in Europe, often very severely. There was not a chance that completely unfamiliar foreigners would be spared.
That part especiay was one I wanted you guys to reverse the terms. I just happened to end up saying "the Romani can…" because it's easier to have a smaller subject.
And this doesn't really work with the first thing I said in this post, but the one for us would be that Romani show us their culture and their way of life (you know, after we've gained their trust and they've gained ours and finally it's done; or before, maybe knowing this will help). Originally, one reason was because we didn't understand them (in terms of religion and such), right?
It can be very hard to find reliable information about the Romani people because they're rarely given a voice, honestly, but there already are
Romani people who have written books for learning the Romani language, introducing Romani culture, discussing Romani history, and so on. Remember my response to Varislintu here
? The quote at the end of that post is from a book written by a Romani person talking about all
of those things.
linguoboy wrote: Koko wrote: linguoboy wrote:
Koko wrote:I mean, if the Romani don't want to be hated, simply stop acting how you currently are.
Oh, is that how it works? So all these years, if I wanted to stop being hated for being a homosexual, all I had to was stop acting so gay? Such a simple solution, don't know why I didn't think of it myself.
I don't mean that as in stop being Romani.
Oh, I didn't mean I need to stop being homosexual. I just have to stop doing those things associated with gay men that the majority disapproves us. Like, you know, bumfucking.
Ludwig Whitby wrote: Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote: Johanna wrote:
And why should the Roma start trusting the majority society? A society that has been actively persecuting them for centuries, and only 70 years ago worked at eradicating their people. Sure, the Nazis aren't in control of Europe any more so there aren't any death camps, but the notion that they are vermin hasn't gone away, and even after 1945 they weren't allowed to settle down, had their children taken away from them, their women sterilised, and were denied education. Then later on, when (at least in the Western world) that changed (often they went from being forced to move around to being forced to settle down in designated flats, with no regards to their culture or family ties), they found it very hard to find jobs, their kids got bullied at school, very often by the teachers, and that still hasn't changed!
But oh no, they
are the ones who should start trusting us
You write: 'they were denied education', this may have led to that they don't even want education at all, it's not valued as highly/important in their culture. This is a big difference with jewish people I think.
The different cultures argument is often abused in my opinion.
True, but it's still an important factor. Too often, schools attempt to assimilate their students into the culture of the majority. The effects of this can be extremely disastrous; in one case, it resulted in the student committing suicide followed by a media smear campaign against her parents.
in school they get picked on by both the teachers and other pupils.
And over 50% of them are put into special education classes in some countries.
Although, even if they had all the time in the world, the teenager would probably still do whatever the fuck he/she wants to do.
Given my understanding of both Indian and Romani culture and the emphasis they put on what parents have to say, I have my doubts. But whatever, it's just a hypothetical scenario anyway.
Oh I wasn't talking about higher education. Many Romas here never even finish elementary school. At best they drop out of a low profile secondary school. They can only dream of going to university.
My advisor never graduated from high school.
Koko wrote:We give them a chance!
I got confused by this sentence.
Did you mean something like "let's say we give them a chance"?
If we (in general) just let them be and end what we're doing, eventually things would get better, right? 'Cause the people who had a problem with each other would eventually die and the new generations would get along. Even if they told their kids what happened, I doubt the kids would be mad enough to start it all over again. I'm not going to bully France because Napoleon conquered the European countries I like (including Italy, that dick. You don't take over your own birth-country by force [Corsica was still Italy at the time)]).
I think this a little unrealistic, though: how many who personally have a problem with Roma are just going to drop everything?
Yeah, the whole point here is that the majority populations (and their governments and institutions and so on) continue to systematically oppress and discriminate against Romani people, so ending that is not that simple. The discrimination as a whole against them is getting progressively worse
, not better. Probably the only positive thing about any of this is that many young Roma in Eastern Europe at least are making serious efforts to combat it and, in some cases, even to combat other kinds of discrimination. No non-Romanies are, not even international organizations or the NGOs that are set up by non-Romanies specifically for this purpose.
I think that nothing will improve until the general public is made more aware of the problems that the Romani people have been facing for hundreds of years and the importance of giving them a voice. I can only hope that by trying to share what I know, at least a few more people will be able to understand what exactly the issues here are.