View on Romani and About Them

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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby Johanna » 2014-09-18, 2:42

linguoboy wrote:
Johanna wrote:I searched on Wikipedia for hancock, no luck, and then went to Hancock – surname, and nowhere in that list does it say anything about Roma or Sinti. So still no luck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Hancock

You would've found him had you gone here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romani_people

Now I have to figure out how to edit Wikipedia.
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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-09-18, 6:15

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:Nice to read your comments Vijay.

Thanks! :)
In the Netherlands there are also a lot of negative stereotypes about Sinti/ Roma. There are also television programmes about them, from the UK originally but they covered them for the Netherlands. You mostly see the girls in those programmes, getting married and doing their Holy Communion and stuff like that.

Oh dear. You mean like Big Fat Gypsy Weddings? :|
linguoboy wrote:Isn't Hancock tenured?

Yep.
He was a prominent spokesperson for the rights of Sinti and Roma in the UK during the 60s. How did he keep his Romani heritage hidden after that?

I'm not sure I'd say he was a prominent spokesperson just yet. He only started getting involved in Romani activism in the 60s as a student. Two faculty members at two different universities (one of them being UT) advised him not to draw attention to his ethnicity, so he kept quiet about it until he got tenure.

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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby linguoboy » 2014-09-18, 15:12

vijayjohn wrote:I'm not sure I'd say he was a prominent spokesperson just yet. He only started getting involved in Romani activism in the 60s as a student. Two faculty members at two different universities (one of them being UT) advised him not to draw attention to his ethnicity, so he kept quiet about it until he got tenure.

That was 40 years ago, however. What reason(s) do you have for believing this would still be the case today? (Moreover, we don't know that he would've been denied tenure even then had his Romani background become known, only that two faculty members thought it would.)
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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby Babelfish » 2014-09-19, 18:45

vijayjohn wrote:I'd go so far as to say that the fact that they were victims of the Holocaust is often denied, not just ignored. They weren't even allowed to participate in the Auschwitz memorial ceremony in 1995 (the 50th anniversary of the camp's liberation by Allied forces) and had to watch it from outside. None were invited to participate in the US Holocaust Memorial Council when it was established in 1980, then President Ronald Reagan made the first Romani appointment in 1987, but George Bush took it away in 2002 and so it seems they have no representation there to this day.
That's weird (and disgusting) - I don't know much about these events you describe, just that it is quite well known (at least in Israel) that the Nazis persecuted Roma, homosexuals and political dissidents quite like they treated the Jews, although perhaps not as vehemently. We learnt about it at school IIRC.

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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby loqu » 2014-09-19, 18:55

Johanna wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Johanna wrote:I searched on Wikipedia for hancock, no luck, and then went to Hancock – surname, and nowhere in that list does it say anything about Roma or Sinti. So still no luck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Hancock

You would've found him had you gone here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romani_people

Now I have to figure out how to edit Wikipedia.

On the very top there's an "edit" link.
Depending on the page, you may have to be registered as a user to edit it.
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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby Johanna » 2014-09-19, 21:04

Babelfish wrote:That's weird (and disgusting) - I don't know much about these events you describe, just that it is quite well known (at least in Israel) that the Nazis persecuted Roma, homosexuals and political dissidents quite like they treated the Jews, although perhaps not as vehemently. We learnt about it at school IIRC.

I learnt it at school, as a side note and then it was all about the Jews, which is a very good way to make the impression that it wasn't that bad for the other groups, while you can still hide behind the fact that you have mentioned it.

Sweden kind of has a stake in burying the whole thing though, we like to see ourselves as open-minded and tolerant, so the fact that Roma in this country faced severe state-sanctioned discrimination for a long time even after the war had ended doesn't sit well with that. Especially not since the common narrative is that there were things going on before 1939 that were 'questionable', but that war made the sinners see the error of their ways and then everyone moved on, and we became this fair and enlightened country.

Heck, if a Roma person found their way to Sweden during or just after World War 2, they were sent back immediately, even if the person in question was a death camp survivor, while at the same time there was at least one organisation (run by a member of the royal family) who went and fetched a large number of Jewish survivors in order to treat them in Sweden. There were actually one or two cases of Roma survivors pretending to be Jews for that very reason.

Anyway, even though most of the people making the laws back then are dead now, people very much invested in creating that narrative are still alive and not that old, so even though it's changing, it's changing really slowly. Not to mention that most people want to keep their family record clean, having fond memories of their older family members and all, and after 1945 you can't really excuse things with 'but those times were different' in regards to racism, so it's easier to simply ignore the whole issue.
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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-09-20, 4:49

vijayjohn wrote:
Isn't Hancock tenured?
Yep.
So he was your advisor for your master's?

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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby vijayjohn » 2014-09-20, 6:47

mōdgethanc wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Isn't Hancock tenured?
Yep.
So he was your advisor for your master's?

Yep. In fact, I worked with him ever since freshman year of undergrad.

(I have more to say about the other stuff that's been discussed here, but more on that later, hopefully).

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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby basica » 2014-09-23, 6:19

I haven't met that many gypsies here in Australia but I can say that based on what my parents and their friends say about them - they are probably at best viewed with a lot of suspicion and at worst actively hated. Some anecdotes that show the general perception where my parents and their friends are from:

I know of someone who hired gypsies to work on building something in their backyard and it was a very hot day that day so a relative of theirs suggested to give the workers some water to cool down and rehydrate. At the end of the day when they left, they chucked in the bin anything touched by the gypsies.

My parents have told me of stories where the gypsies are basically conniving thieves, most often the stories are gypsies robbing people in humorous ways (i.e. dressing up as a police officer, waving someone down and driving off with their car). Other times not so nice (on one occasion my mother overhead some gypsies talking about mutilating their children so they'd get more money begging and sure enough sometime later my mother saw that one of their children was now missing a hand when they were out begging).

They have it pretty tough obviously, even now. I mean, it's still common in Slavic countries to insult somebody by calling them a gypsy so there's a lot of change that needs to happen.
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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby Koko » 2014-09-23, 7:23

The thing is that the problem cannot be fixed unless the two sides work to help it.

Honestly, many stereotypes (has something to do with the Romani) exist because the races associated with a stereotype generally live up to them. I mean, if the Romani don't want to be hated, simply stop acting how you currently are. As long as many Romani continue stealing and behaving as reported, their overall reputation won't get any better.

And for the those against the Romani, rather than beaking them and just being deuches, work to help them be more civil (surely, their culture can't view stealing and beating (as reported) as civil, right?).

For both the sides, they need to gain trust with each other. I know it's difficult to do that when you've been bashing each other for decades, but what had happened is over; many countries have gained the other's trust and friendship after wars (look at the States and Germany, or Japan and the States, or the States and the States): the Romani and the Australians, Czechs, Swedes, Greeks, Europeans in general can do so too. Or should be able to.

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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby loqu » 2014-09-23, 8:51

Koko wrote:I mean, if the Romani don't want to be hated, simply stop acting how you currently are.

For the rest of your message I assume you don't mean bad, but keep in mind sentences like this one are very dangerous.
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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby Johanna » 2014-09-23, 11:16

Koko wrote:The thing is that the problem cannot be fixed unless the two sides work to help it.

Honestly, many stereotypes (has something to do with the Romani) exist because the races associated with a stereotype generally live up to them. I mean, if the Romani don't want to be hated, simply stop acting how you currently are. As long as many Romani continue stealing and behaving as reported, their overall reputation won't get any better.

And for the those against the Romani, rather than beaking them and just being deuches, work to help them be more civil (surely, their culture can't view stealing and beating (as reported) as civil, right?).

For both the sides, they need to gain trust with each other. I know it's difficult to do that when you've been bashing each other for decades, but what had happened is over; many countries have gained the other's trust and friendship after wars (look at the States and Germany, or Japan and the States, or the States and the States): the Romani and the Australians, Czechs, Swedes, Greeks, Europeans in general can do so too. Or should be able to.

This entire post is a perfect study in victim blaming.

The thing is, most Roma don't steal or behave badly, but they are still thought of as thieves and treated accordingly. So who should start with the trusting?

Sure, there are Roma who steal, but guess what? Since they aren't let into the main society in many places, and many are still poor also in countries where there are efforts to integrate them, they are in the socio-economic group whose members are more likely to commit petty theft. This group includes lots of white Europeans as well, but do we look at every poor person as a thief? Nope.

Not to mention that if there has been a theft ad there are Roma in the vicinity, they are often blamed whether they did it or not. Which in turn makes the stereotype come true in the majority's eyes, leading to a truly scary post like yours.

And why should the Roma start trusting the majority society? A society that has been actively persecuting them for centuries, and only 70 years ago worked at eradicating their people. Sure, the Nazis aren't in control of Europe any more so there aren't any death camps, but the notion that they are vermin hasn't gone away, and even after 1945 they weren't allowed to settle down, had their children taken away from them, their women sterilised, and were denied education. Then later on, when (at least in the Western world) that changed (often they went from being forced to move around to being forced to settle down in designated flats, with no regards to their culture or family ties), they found it very hard to find jobs, their kids got bullied at school, very often by the teachers, and that still hasn't changed!

But oh no, they are the ones who should start trusting us... :roll:


Edit: oh yes, an apparently we fine white people should teach those savages how to be civil. Like the nice colonial masters of the olden days did for the population in huge chunks of the world, it's simply doing them a favour.

Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's what it reads like to me.
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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby linguoboy » 2014-09-23, 14:46

Koko wrote:I mean, if the Romani don't want to be hated, simply stop acting how you currently are.

Oh, is that how it works? So all these years, if I wanted to stop being hated for being a homosexual, all I had to was stop acting so gay? Such a simple solution, don't know why I didn't think of it myself.
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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby Koko » 2014-09-23, 15:04

Actually, what I said was meant to also be able to replace the term Romani with any other. It wasn't intended to be Romani-exclusive.

Johanna wrote:The thing is, most Roma don't steal or behave badly, but they are still thought of as thieves and treated accordingly. So who should start with the trusting?
I know, so this is really regarding the ones who do happen to.

Not to mention that if there has been a theft ad there are Roma in the vicinity, they are often blamed whether they did it or not. Which in turn makes the stereotype come true in the majority's eyes, leading to a truly scary post like yours.
My post wasn't… I could see how, but there are other stereotypes that I could've made a similar one for. Or a post against one, but I can't for the Roma because I don't know much from them :(

And why should the Roma start trusting the majority society? A society that has been actively persecuting them for centuries, and only 70 years ago worked at eradicating their people. Sure, the Nazis aren't in control of Europe any more so there aren't any death camps, but the notion that they are vermin hasn't gone away, and even after 1945 they weren't allowed to settle down, had their children taken away from them, their women sterilised, and were denied education. Then later on, when (at least in the Western world) that changed (often they went from being forced to move around to being forced to settle down in designated flats, with no regards to their culture or family ties), they found it very hard to find jobs, their kids got bullied at school, very often by the teachers, and that still hasn't changed!
What's happened to them is disgusting. I wonder exactly what started the hatred towards them: it seems to have just grown from nothing.

But oh no, they are the ones who should start trusting us... :roll:

That part especiay was one I wanted you guys to reverse the terms. I just happened to end up saying "the Romani can…" because it's easier to have a smaller subject.


Edit: oh yes, an apparently we fine white people should teach those savages how to be civil. Like the nice colonial masters of the olden days did for the population in huge chunks of the world, it's simply doing them a favour.
Now considering I did actually say it in a way that would make that impression, I didn't mean to. And this doesn't really work with the first thing I said in this post, but the one for us would be that Romani show us their culture and their way of life (you know, after we've gained their trust and they've gained ours and finally it's done; or before, maybe knowing this will help). Originally, one reason was because we didn't understand them (in terms of religion and such), right?

Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but that's what it reads like to me.
Of course not! But I understand your anger, since I didn't really explain much on what I meant.

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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby Koko » 2014-09-23, 15:05

linguoboy wrote:
Koko wrote:I mean, if the Romani don't want to be hated, simply stop acting how you currently are.

Oh, is that how it works? So all these years, if I wanted to stop being hated for being a homosexual, all I had to was stop acting so gay? Such a simple solution, don't know why I didn't think of it myself.

I don't mean that as in stop being Romani.

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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby linguoboy » 2014-09-23, 15:53

Koko wrote:Actually, what I said was meant to also be able to replace the term Romani with any other. It wasn't intended to be Romani-exclusive.

That's precisely what makes this sentence so dangerous and what inspired my personal response to it. As Johanna says, it's victim-blaming. It puts the burden of changing one's behaviour on the person actually experiencing the unfair treatment and not on the one treating people unfairly.

Koko wrote:
Johanna wrote:The thing is, most Roma don't steal or behave badly, but they are still thought of as thieves and treated accordingly. So who should start with the trusting?
I know, so this is really regarding the ones who do happen to.

The point is that there are thieves in every population. Most corporate criminals, for instance, are straight white males. But we don't, as a result of that, make outcasts of all straight white males and tell them as a group, "We won't treat you fairly and justly until the minority among you who commit these crimes stop committing them."
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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby linguoboy » 2014-09-23, 15:55

Koko wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Koko wrote:I mean, if the Romani don't want to be hated, simply stop acting how you currently are.

Oh, is that how it works? So all these years, if I wanted to stop being hated for being a homosexual, all I had to was stop acting so gay? Such a simple solution, don't know why I didn't think of it myself.

I don't mean that as in stop being Romani.

Oh, I didn't mean I need to stop being homosexual. I just have to stop doing those things associated with gay men that the majority disapproves us. Like, you know, bumfucking.
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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2014-09-23, 17:30

Johanna wrote:
And why should the Roma start trusting the majority society? A society that has been actively persecuting them for centuries, and only 70 years ago worked at eradicating their people. Sure, the Nazis aren't in control of Europe any more so there aren't any death camps, but the notion that they are vermin hasn't gone away, and even after 1945 they weren't allowed to settle down, had their children taken away from them, their women sterilised, and were denied education. Then later on, when (at least in the Western world) that changed (often they went from being forced to move around to being forced to settle down in designated flats, with no regards to their culture or family ties), they found it very hard to find jobs, their kids got bullied at school, very often by the teachers, and that still hasn't changed!

But oh no, they are the ones who should start trusting us... :roll:



You write: 'they were denied education', this may have led to that they don't even want education at all, it's not valued as highly/important in their culture. This is a big difference with jewish people I think.

Anyway, even when/if it's true that Roma/Sinti people are poorer than other people, have more criminal behaviour and less education, society shouldn't just say to them: 'change', they should look at the reasons to understand them better and to see what solutions would work. Because many of the solutions that are tried now ('we buy you these houses and force your children to go to school') don't.
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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-09-23, 17:54

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:
Johanna wrote:
And why should the Roma start trusting the majority society? A society that has been actively persecuting them for centuries, and only 70 years ago worked at eradicating their people. Sure, the Nazis aren't in control of Europe any more so there aren't any death camps, but the notion that they are vermin hasn't gone away, and even after 1945 they weren't allowed to settle down, had their children taken away from them, their women sterilised, and were denied education. Then later on, when (at least in the Western world) that changed (often they went from being forced to move around to being forced to settle down in designated flats, with no regards to their culture or family ties), they found it very hard to find jobs, their kids got bullied at school, very often by the teachers, and that still hasn't changed!

But oh no, they are the ones who should start trusting us... :roll:



You write: 'they were denied education', this may have led to that they don't even want education at all, it's not valued as highly/important in their culture. This is a big difference with jewish people I think.

The different cultures argument is often abused in my opinion.

The poorest Romas don't really have the possibility to go to school. Even if the state gives them free books (which I'm not sure is the case everywhere), education takes up a lot of time that the kids could use to go out and earn a few bucks. So, work is essential for their survival (if they don't find money somehow, they starve) while school is difficult and in school they get picked on by both the teachers and other pupils. Any kid put in that situation would drop out, no matter their culture.

As soon as the Roma families get ahold of enough money to get by, they usually force their kids to get educated. The kids still mostly drop out, because of the hostile enviroment in schools and because they don't want to wait 5 or 10 years so that maybe they'd get a decent job; they want to start earning money and living like decent human beings ASAP! Their parents have to work all day to earn money for the family and have 6 other kids to worry about so they can't dedicate enough time to convince their rebelious teenager not to drop out. Although, even if they had all the time in the world, the teenager would probably still do whatever the fuck he/she wants to do.

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Re: View on Gypsies and About Them

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2014-09-23, 19:13

Ludwig Whitby wrote:The different cultures argument is often abused in my opinion.

The poorest Romas don't really have the possibility to go to school. Even if the state gives them free books (which I'm not sure is the case everywhere), education takes up a lot of time that the kids could use to go out and earn a few bucks. So, work is essential for their survival (if they don't find money somehow, they starve) while school is difficult and in school they get picked on by both the teachers and other pupils. Any kid put in that situation would drop out, no matter their culture.

As soon as the Roma families get ahold of enough money to get by, they usually force their kids to get educated. The kids still mostly drop out, because of the hostile enviroment in schools and because they don't want to wait 5 or 10 years so that maybe they'd get a decent job; they want to start earning money and living like decent human beings ASAP! Their parents have to work all day to earn money for the family and have 6 other kids to worry about so they can't dedicate enough time to convince their rebelious teenager not to drop out. Although, even if they had all the time in the world, the teenager would probably still do whatever the fuck he/she wants to do.


Obviously there are differences between countries too... In the Netherlands usually children don't work, at least not when they're 12 years or younger. After then, I think your second paragraph explains quite well what happens. But from what I have heard, Roma/Sinti people don't force their kids to get educated most of the time, they just don't think it as necessary as for example Morocan or Afghani people do. But maybe I shouldn't have used the word culture there, you're right. By the way, plenty of low educated people think (high) education isn't that necessary for children. (And sometimes they have a point because I guess you can find a job easier when you have a pratical education than when you have a university degree in some obscure language for example...)
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