Is austerity a crime against humanity?

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Massimiliano B
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Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby Massimiliano B » 2014-04-30, 22:31


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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby md0 » 2014-04-30, 22:34

If Holodomor is, then yes.
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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-05-01, 0:09

I think austerity in itself is not, but poor implementation of it can be. IMF and other parties only want to see their investment returned and it is not really their fault - they are giving the money to help the country avoid even more catastrophical economic collapse. It is the fault of the government and their economic policies if the economy collapses and it is their job to figure out how to cut spending without hurting people. If the dry business thinking of IMF, which ignores the needs of people meets incompotent and/or corrupt government that does not care about its people it's probably a recipce for disaster. Would be curious to see what ICC decides in the particular case
meidei wrote:If Holodomor is, then yes.

Holodmor was not caused by austerity, it was caused by idiotic economic system, poor harvest and possibly the father of nations

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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby md0 » 2014-05-01, 0:12

Holodmor was not caused by austerity, it was caused by idiotic economic system, poor harvest and possibly the father of nations

Here's your answer ;)
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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-05-01, 1:29

meidei wrote:
Holodmor was not caused by austerity, it was caused by idiotic economic system, poor harvest and possibly the father of nations

Here's your answer ;)

I didn't mean the same thing as mismanagment of country's economy, though. Soviet economy was fundamentaly different from free market economy in Greece and much of the world. Communists believed that all economic resources should be common, resulting in a system where all free trade was banned and the country sold all the goods, resulting in variety of problems since economic laws still work even when somebody chooses to ignore them. And on top of that in most cases people owning stuff or trading were branded criminals, especialy under Stalin. There was a shortlived communist regime in Latvia after WWI, which also efectively caused famine by trying to implement instant communism, which in turn led to their downfall, although socialism was extremly popular at the time. The entire concept is unrealistic and unlikely to function well anywhere. This has nothing to do with poor policies leading to collapse of economy of an individual country resulting in severe budget cuts under free market economy

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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby md0 » 2014-05-01, 10:05

Austerity goes against everything economists said about capitalism as well. All the talk about market trust etc.
And IMF, the one of the three members of Troika has came out multiple times to say "Oops, I miscalculated that" and "That measure was a bad idea". But Eurogroup and EU keep doing the same thing.

In any way, Eurozone is the specific problem here (if blaming capitalism is too far-fetched). While Britain and the US are printing money as their way out of the recession ("Quantitative Easing"), Eurozone simply multiplies the public debt of it's southern members (everyone but Ireland afaik, so their public debt double after Troika's policies), because the northern members actually benefit by the current exchange rate and money supply. I am not saying they have some evil plan to kill us all to help their exports, just that they are locked in a situation where a bad option is the only option that doesn't disrupt the system. That's why I parallel it with Holodomor. Is it bureaucracy gone horribly wrong a crime? Is it blindly enforcing on an economic doctrine when you admit you don't know what you are doing (see IMF's mea culpas) a crime? There's the understanding, at least in Greece, that politicians cannot be prosecuted for their policy (eg if they run the country as socialists, or with austerity), but only for direct actions (so I'd say it would be impossible to sue the Greek government over austerity).

I am pretty much convinced nowadays that a common currency can't work. Our economies are far more different.
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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-05-01, 20:56

You may compare to the Holodomor when millions of EU citizens die from it. Until then, please stop insulting the memory of all the Ukrainians who did die.

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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby Itikar » 2014-05-03, 15:24

Massimiliano B wrote:http://occupynewsnetwork.co.uk/is-austerity-a-crime-against-humanity/

The lady is quite brave!

I dout however she will achieve anything until the people in question are in office.
Maybe in 20 years or so something will move when the accused ones will be enjoying their pensions and our moneys will have vanished in the pockets of we know who.

Let's wait for the aftermath of the European elections, then the great operation will begin! :yep:

(if blaming capitalism is too far-fetched)

I fail to see any benefit for a society in present financial capitalism.
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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby loqu » 2014-05-03, 16:41

I agree with meidei. I blame the common currency as well and I hope it falls out soon. We should have our own currency and be able to devalue it because otherwise we're doomed to be incompetitive and miserable. Economists say if Spain left the Eurozone, its new currency would have a value 35% lower than the euro. I know that would mean we wouldn't be able to buy things or travel abroad, but I prefer that over having 25% unemployment and a million homes with no income at all, which is our current situation.

Apart from that, the Spanish circumstance is that we have a rotten political system. It is beginning to be questioned now, about time.
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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby md0 » 2014-05-03, 17:17

I know that would mean we wouldn't be able to buy things or travel abroad, but I prefer that over having 25% unemployment and a million homes with no income at all, which is our current situation.

But that's just 2 bad options. And it seems like we are only given bad options lately.

---

You may compare to the Holodomor when millions of EU citizens die from it.

Somewhere between infant mortality rising by 43%, suicide rates increased by 45%, HIV infections rising by 200%, abolishment of cancer treatment 'unless in final stages, when it's ER material', previously eradicated diseases like malaria returning, complete slashing of mental health departments due to across-the-board budget cuts and so on, just in Greece, I think there's a reason to compare it to Holodomor.
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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-05-03, 20:04

meidei wrote:
You may compare to the Holodomor when millions of EU citizens die from it.

Somewhere between infant mortality rising by 43%, suicide rates increased by 45%, HIV infections rising by 200%, abolishment of cancer treatment 'unless in final stages, when it's ER material', previously eradicated diseases like malaria returning, complete slashing of mental health departments due to across-the-board budget cuts and so on, just in Greece, I think there's a reason to compare it to Holodomor.

Sure, and forced population transfer is just a type of emigration and gulag was just a prison. There was a major global depression in 1930s as well, when they did far less to stop it, yet no one considers that a crime against humanity. Economic trouble increases the number of poor and poor have all sorts of trouble and it has always been that way; austerity is yet another consequence of economic crisis, not the cause of it.

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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-03, 20:21

There was a major global depression in 1930s as well, when they did far less to stop it.


Did they? What about FDR's New Deal? Does it ring any bells?

Economic trouble increases the number of poor and poor have all sorts of trouble and it has always been that way


Yeah and in the past there was a welfare state that could actually help the poor to a certain extent. Now this is disappearing due to the austerity measures.

austerity is yet another consequence of economic crisis, not the cause of it.


No, it's a vicious circle. Austerity is sold as a cure when it actually worsens the condition of the patient. It's not a "consequence" as if it was something natural and unavoidable. It's a political decision, a wrong one btw. Keynes is turning in his tomb.

abolishment of cancer treatment 'unless in final stages


This is fucking scary.

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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby md0 » 2014-05-03, 21:43

This is fucking scary.


The health minister has told a major US newspaper that he doesn't consider "illnesses like cancer" to be "urgent, unless you are in the final stages".

Adonis Georgiadis' comments appeared in an article in the Washington Post, published on Saturday, that showed how uninsured cancer patients are left to pay for their own life-saving treatment as a result of losing their social security coverage due to long-term unemployment.

The paper pointed out that there are now at least 2.3m – or almost one in five Greeks – without health insurance.

Georgiadis told Anthony Faiola, the newspaper's London bureau chief, that emergency cases are still being treated at public hospitals irrespective of insurance status.

"But illnesses like cancer are not considered urgent, unless you are in the final stages," he added.


http://www.enetenglish.gr/?i=news.en.article&id=1782
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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-03, 21:51

I think that at this point they're really capable of doing anything. I'm really speechless.

It may not be a genocide, but it's definitely a crime against humanity.

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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-05-03, 22:04

IpseDixit wrote:
There was a major global depression in 1930s as well, when they did far less to stop it.


Did they? What about FDR's New Deal? Does it ring any bells?

I said they did less, not that they did nothing. All the world is not US
austerity is yet another consequence of economic crisis, not the cause of it.


No, it's a vicious circle. Austerity is sold as a cure when it actually worsens the condition of the patient. It's not a "consequence" as if it was something natural and unavoidable. It's a political decision, a wrong one btw. Keynes is turning in his tomb.

Austerity is not spending money that you do not have, the other option is to keep spending as if you still had the money, which will just increase your financial troubles (unless your government can figure out another solution)

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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby md0 » 2014-05-03, 22:12

IpseDixit wrote:I think that at this point they're really capable of doing anything. I'm really speechless.

It may not be a genocide, but it's definitely a crime against humanity.


All they can do is to waste resources until the person dies, really. That's why it's called the "final stage". They might as well let them die in the streets and save even more money :|

The Troika deal capped Greece's public health expenditure at 6% of the GDP. And Greece's GDP for the last couple of years have been consistently declining by 5~10% each year (and in total -25% since the austerity was introduced). The Greek State is allowed to spend less and less on public health, because the ratio remains fixed, but the GDP is shrinking.
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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-03, 22:29

Sol Invictus wrote:I said they did less, not that they did nothing.


Sources?

Sol Invictus wrote:Austerity is not spending money that you do not have, the other option is to keep spending as if you still had the money, which will just increase your financial troubles (unless your government can figure out another solution)


What are you talking about? A country with a sovereign currency can print money, a normal country is not run like a private organization that has to save up fiancial resources. In such a dire dowturn you actually should pump liquidity into the economy, which is what countries with a sovereign currency have been doing for the last years.

Oh and if you are about to bring up inflation, there are ways to control it and in any case it's not that big of a problem (for example during its greatest boom Italy's inflation was at 17%), the problem is deflation (brought about by the euro) nowadays.

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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-05-03, 22:49

IpseDixit wrote:A country with a sovereign currency can print money

Does that make Euro crime against humanity too? ECB did in fact print more money (do google search), which probably is what part of what caused Euro to fall over past few years - printing money too is not without consequences, just ask Weimar Republic

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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby md0 » 2014-05-03, 22:53

All the world is not US

Many economies of the world weren't affected by it (USSR and China for example).
Other countries went to war, and a war is a huge public expenditure programme if you think about it.
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Re: Is austerity a crime against humanity?

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-03, 23:14

Sol Invictus wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:A country with a sovereign currency can print money

Does that make Euro crime against humanity too? ECB did in fact print more money (do google search), which probably is what part of what caused Euro to fall over past few years - printing money too is not without consequences, just ask Weimar Republic


The ECB bought bonds of some countries just as a temporary measure and just because the circumstances were very urgent. It's not really what I meant when I was talking about printing money.

The ECB is not like any other central bank of a sovereign country anyway. Plus, we are in a system with a fixed exchange rate so such monetary policies do not really work if we keep the euro.

And I notice that you took me really seriously when I asked you not to bring up inflation.

Why don't you ask all those countries that are pumping liquidity and that are recovering?


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