[Split] Sexism

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Varislintu » 2014-01-27, 11:02

languagepotato wrote:if people can snap at me for opening the door, i can snap at people for asking me to help them carry stuff. :ohwell:


And then I get to call you hysterical retard? Okay. :ohwell:

And I would be the one looking less tactful in that situation, in my opinion.

Btw, you use the word "can", and I wonder if that reveals another difference between us in how we think about this. You seem to be after some kind of black or white rules which unambiguously puts one party in the wrong, and makes them deserve the harshest of chiding. Wheras I see a complicated situation that's doesn't clearly cast either party in the wrong or in the right. I mean, of course people "get to" react in a wide spectrum of ways. There aren't really any laws against it. So yes, you "can" be rude as well if you choose to. Personally, I'm not talking about what people get to do or not, but how it makes them look. A person having a rude outburst that may have understandable causes makes them look less bad than a person who is having a rude outburst for example to get back at people. People ranting about the hysterics and retardedness of women who lash out at perceived sexism just don't score very high on tact or awareness in my book. But yes, you "get to" do that, of course.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby languagepotato » 2014-01-27, 11:34

Varislintu wrote:
languagepotato wrote:if people can snap at me for opening the door, i can snap at people for asking me to help them carry stuff. :ohwell:


And then I get to call you hysterical retard? Okay. :ohwell:

And I would be the one looking less tactful in that situation, in my opinion.

Btw, you use the word "can", and I wonder if that reveals another difference between us in how we think about this. You seem to be after some kind of black or white rules which unambiguously puts one party in the wrong, and makes them deserve the harshest of chiding. Wheras I see a complicated situation that's doesn't clearly cast either party in the wrong or in the right. I mean, of course people "get to" react in a wide spectrum of ways. There aren't really any laws against it. So yes, you "can" be rude as well if you choose to. Personally, I'm not talking about what people get to do or not, but how it makes them look. A person having a rude outburst that may have understandable causes makes them look less bad than a person who is having a rude outburst for example to get back at people. People ranting about the hysterics and retardedness of women who lash out at perceived sexism just don't score very high on tact or awareness in my book. But yes, you "get to" do that, of course.


i meant that as a kind of joke* to show that both things i mentioned are kinda ridiculous. yeah, both can be perceived as sexism but they're not inherently sexist, so they're not something to snap at.

*i should've known internet forum+joke=bad idea
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Varislintu » 2014-01-27, 11:42

Actually I think expecting men to carry stuff can be quite sexist, if it's consistent and doesn't apply equally to women. If you as a gender were constantly made to feel inferior for being stronger, I could well understand a man snapping when asked to carry something for the umpteenth time, even if that particular time the request had no sexist intentions. I'd understand.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby mak » 2014-01-27, 11:54

This is of course anecdotal and I may suffer from confirmation bias, but my mother was and still is a teacher at a school and the environment was very similar to what was described in the article: cliques, gossip, non literal catfights, snide comments, avoiding people instead of making a decision that will upset people, etc. How do I know this? I got to hear her bitching about it very often.

Luckily, there was a man in charge and shit got done. The previous principal, a woman, could not take it any longer and left to work in a quiet library :D How do I know this? She and my mother were friends and she told her she got tired of all the crap she had to deal with at the school.

I haven't worked for long, but I've never experienced such behavior at my male dominated workplaces.

Do I think schools should be closed down because of this? Of course not, that's a straw(wo)man :D argument. Does observing this behavior make me a misogynist?

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby md0 » 2014-01-27, 12:00

Sure. Because we absolutely know as a fact that men never fight for power in a workplace, ans sabotage their competitors.
Ah, wait, fight for power is what men are supposed to do. When women do it it's a catfight.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby languagepotato » 2014-01-27, 12:40

you're still missing the point

something that's not inherently sexist, shouldn't be something to snap at because you think it might be sexist, especially not if it's a nice gesture, no matter how many times some people have done it out of sexist ways.

i can snap at anything and find a reason why i should, but unless the bad quality is inherent to the thing i'm snapping at, i'm either just being an asshole or i need anger management classes.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Varislintu » 2014-01-27, 12:42

mak wrote:This is of course anecdotal and I may suffer from confirmation bias, but my mother was and still is a teacher at a school and the environment was very similar to what was described in the article: cliques, gossip, non literal catfights, snide comments, avoiding people instead of making a decision that will upset people, etc. How do I know this? I got to hear her bitching about it very often.

Luckily, there was a man in charge and shit got done. The previous principal, a woman, could not take it any longer and left to work in a quiet library :D How do I know this? She and my mother were friends and she told her she got tired of all the crap she had to deal with at the school.

I haven't worked for long, but I've never experienced such behavior at my male dominated workplaces.

Do I think schools should be closed down because of this? Of course not, that's a straw(wo)man :D argument. Does observing this behavior make me a misogynist?


I don't know, but I do know that reading about you having these opinions (that a workplace needs a man in it for shit to get done) sure confirms in me that there are still lots of sexist men all around me, who may make it harder for me to succeed in the workplace because they think I'm like you describe because of my vagina.

"Paranoia" was mentioned by someone above. Now, I didn't even have to search for this little gem of sexim to be served to me today. Here we have a textbook example of what kind of things keep up this "paranoia" in women, on a daily basis.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-01-27, 13:10

Mak, I have preciselly the same reason to believe, as I said, that television attracts both male and female bitches. Also my grandmother worked as a nurse before retirement and quite liked her colleagues :roll: and anyway how does this prove the point you seemed to be making that the guy is right women in politics suck, do their husbands' biding and throw fits due to PMS? Any case to prove it?

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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby mak » 2014-01-27, 16:21

I was trying to make a point that it doesn't happen in TV only. Who's to say something like that but to a lesser extent can't also happen in politics? Any case to disprove it?

I think that any person, male or female but not transgender, who's very good at their job will have few hurdles in their way to succeed in their workplace. I had an Algorithms professor at university who was in her mid twenties and looked like a model, there's a couple of women in my male dominated workplace who we go to for advice. If you excel at your job I'll dare say sexism can do little to stop you from succeeding. Otherwise it sounds a lot like whining.

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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby md0 » 2014-01-27, 16:33

Sure.
It's pure whining. There are no societal structures in place. It's all personal responsibility and the 51% of the population is just naturally worse in their job, that's why they are paid up to 40% less than the other 49% of the population.
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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby linguoboy » 2014-01-27, 16:47

mak wrote:I think that any person, male or female but not transgender, who's very good at their job will have few hurdles in their way to succeed in their workplace.

That's what those who have faced few barriers in life on account of their gender, sexual identity, sexual preference, race, religion, class, socioeconomic status, and physical heath always say. (Except for the caveat about transgender individuals. Very big of you to admit that there may actually be some people out there who have to deal with shit you don't.)

This isn't the best response to that mindset there is (in particular, it glaringly ignores the class issues), but it often seems to succeed in getting the point across where other approaches have failed: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby johntm » 2014-01-27, 17:00

meidei wrote:It will help you to know that not all girls (or all people in general), think alike. There's not some hivemind all girls are connected on and that makes them see your actions in the same light.
I'm aware of that, but culture can play a part in people's opinions, and what I'm getting that is a lot of girls are influenced by that here.

Varislintu wrote:Actually I think expecting men to carry stuff can be quite sexist, if it's consistent and doesn't apply equally to women. If you as a gender were constantly made to feel inferior for being stronger, I could well understand a man snapping when asked to carry something for the umpteenth time, even if that particular time the request had no sexist intentions. I'd understand.

Shit, if someone uses the "you're stronger" as a reason for me to carry something, I'm more likely to do it :lol: But that's just appealing to my vain side and something I value and try to cultivate (physical strength). My roommate's girlfriend has used this on me before.
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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby Bijlee » 2014-01-27, 17:09

I think that any person, male or female but not transgender, who's very good at their job will have few hurdles in their way to succeed in their workplace. I had an Algorithms professor at university who was in her mid twenties and looked like a model, there's a couple of women in my male dominated workplace who we go to for advice. If you excel at your job I'll dare say sexism can do little to stop you from succeeding. Otherwise it sounds a lot like whining.

Why do you not use that algorithms professor or your female coworkers as evidence for woman's competency instead of taking your mother's experience as a teacher as the poster child for women in the workplace?
meidei wrote:Sure

Here are some more articles (@mak, you can find a lot more if you want to do a quick search):
http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/node7.html
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012 ... inst-women
http://ideas.time.com/2012/10/04/womens ... -to-women/
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ender-bias
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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby mak » 2014-01-27, 17:24

linguoboy wrote:This isn't the best response to that mindset there is (in particular, it glaringly ignores the class issues), but it often seems to succeed in getting the point across where other approaches have failed: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

Ok, consider me schooled :D But I still think playing on hard mode is more productive than whining.

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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby linguoboy » 2014-01-27, 17:29

mak wrote:
linguoboy wrote:This isn't the best response to that mindset there is (in particular, it glaringly ignores the class issues), but it often seems to succeed in getting the point across where other approaches have failed: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

Ok, consider me schooled :D But I still think playing on hard mode is more productive than whining.

If people don't draw attention to the inequalities, they will never get dealt with. But the people who benefit from them don't want them dealt with so they call any attempts to draw attention to them "whining" as a way of discrediting them. And you know what? More often than not, it works.
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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby md0 » 2014-01-27, 17:30

But I still think playing on hard mode is more productive than whining.

From the cozy vantage point you reside upon, can you even see how's life down here?
Feel free to switch brains with one of us "hardcore gamers" if you enjoy the thrill and find the experience rewarding.

(That reminds me of the moral lesson in every Christianity class: when your life is shit, it's because God loves you and wants to test you).
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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-01-27, 18:17

linguoboy wrote:
mak wrote:
linguoboy wrote:This isn't the best response to that mindset there is (in particular, it glaringly ignores the class issues), but it often seems to succeed in getting the point across where other approaches have failed: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

Ok, consider me schooled :D But I still think playing on hard mode is more productive than whining.

If people don't draw attention to the inequalities, they will never get dealt with. But the people who benefit from them don't want them dealt with so they call any attempts to draw attention to them "whining" as a way of discrediting them. And you know what? More often than not, it works.

I disagree, problems need to be addressed, but you do not need constantly draw attention to problem, that's just as bad over-generalization as assuming school is best model for workplace and ignoring other examples of how females act in work and assuming main cause of problems is gender and ignoring other factors. Plenty of examples mentioned before have male acting on somewhat dated rules of politeness and probably not thinking that these norms originate from sexist beliefs - unless the male holds those dated beliefs, it is not really symptomatic of sexism, the guy is just trying to be polite. Complaining about a problem that does not exist is not only whining, but can also evolve into discrimination aimed against the supposedly more advantageous group - such things as wanting certain number of females in a job, all-female workplaces, feminism and so on also is sexism. Such whining for no reason can also cause a backlash convincing people that complaints about sexism are always whining and they should not pay attention to that, not to mention the negative image such belief creates about the supposedly abused group.

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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby linguoboy » 2014-01-27, 18:34

Sol Invictus wrote:
linguoboy wrote:If people don't draw attention to the inequalities, they will never get dealt with. But the people who benefit from them don't want them dealt with so they call any attempts to draw attention to them "whining" as a way of discrediting them. And you know what? More often than not, it works.

I disagree, problems need to be addressed, but you do not need contstantly draw attention to problem, that's just as bad overgeneralization as assuming school is best model for workplace and ignoring other examples of how females act in work and assuming main cause of problems is gener and ignoring other factors. Plenty of examples mentioned before have male acting on somewhat dated rules of politeness and probably not thinking that these norms originate from sexist beliefs, unless the male holds those dated beliefs, it is not really symptomatic of sexism, the guy is just trying to be polite.

Actually that's precisely what makes it "symptomatic of sexism". You're falling into the old trap of thinking of sexism as consisting of nothing more than the personal attitudes of a few retrograde individuals as opposed to a systematic institutionalised problem.

Sol Invictus wrote:Complaining about a problem that does not exist is not only whining, but can also evolve into discrimination aimed against the supposedly more adventagous group - such things as wanting certain number of females in a job, all-female workplaces, feminism and so on also is sexism.

That's one of the weakest slippery slope arguments I think I've ever seen. Please to explain how getting pissy with someone for holding open a door inevitably leads to employment quotas.

You and mak think this "whining" is "unproductive" and even counterproductive but I'll point out that if "whining" hadn't prompted him to come here and complain, he never would've been pushed toward resources which he himself admits have forced him to begin reevaluating his views.

It beats me how you think we're going to make any progress against inequality if you consider simply raising the issue unnecessary at best and, at worst, tantamount to reverse discrimination.
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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby Varislintu » 2014-01-27, 18:36

I disagree that "feminism" should be up there with the examples of counter-discrimination. Sure, it's a huge umbrella term nowadays, but I don't think it deserves that characterization. Some of the sanest voices I've encountered online are from feminists, and they are not anti-male ones.
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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby languagepotato » 2014-01-27, 18:41

Varislintu wrote:I disagree that "feminism" should be up there with the examples of counter-discrimination. Sure, it's a huge umbrella term nowadays, but I don't think it deserves that characterization. Some of the sanest voices I've encountered online are from feminists, and they are not anti-male ones.


gotta agree on that one
i've met 'I HATE YOU CAUSE YOU'RE A GUY'-feminists
and i've met 'there are some problems with the way some people act towards women'-feminists

needless to say i'm with the second group
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