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Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2019-10-07, 5:01
by md0
vijayjohn wrote:Thanks! I find that people don't talk much about men abusing women, but they talk about that more than about men abusing other men.[...] I get the impression that people talk especially rarely about women abusing men, I think even more than about abusive gay relationships.


I think there's a lot of interaction with how either masculinity or homosexuality is discussed in a society.
Talking about adult men abusing male minors is the only "easy" discussion. Everyone, within a rounding error, agrees that's abuse and wrong. Unfortunately, the same is not the case if the victim is a female minor, going by the reactions in recent such cases in Cyprus. A girl is always "a little slut pretending to be an adult and got what's coming from her", this was never said for a raped boy in all the years I follow the news.

If traditional gender roles dominate in a society though, a man raped by a woman is only sympathetic in the "stolen sperm" case. More generally, an abused man is sympathetic if they suffer material exploitation by a woman - exploitation through alimony/child support is the only issue men associations bring up in Cyprus. Other than this abuse of a man's role as a provider, I don't remember any other form of abuse going public that doesn't result to ridicule of victim.

As for gay domestic abuse, I think I have more insight as to why we rarely talk about it. Even 10 years after we stopped being invisible in Cyprus, we still feel like we have to conform to extremely more stringent standards than the wider society, because we "have" to prove we are not all monsters. When "some of us" are abusers, we are afraid of reporting it because homophobes will go "We told you so!". I don't even know how complaints will be treated by investigators if they are made. The fixation on penetration and the belief that the one who penetrates by definition wants to be doing it is pervasive.

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2019-10-07, 15:14
by linguoboy
vijayjohn wrote:Thanks! I find that people don't talk much about men abusing women, but they talk about that more than about men abusing other men. Even when they talk about men abusing other men, it's not usually about domestic sexual abuse in gay relationships

One of the knockoff effects of #metoo was kickstarting this discussion among MSM. Although there was some talk of appropriation but because--as you say--sexual abuse of men by men (outside of prison rape, where it is gleefully reduced to a punchline) is not generally talked about, the general consensus was that this was not just another instance of coopting a woman-centred discussion to make it All About Men. A lot of the same patterns emerge in terms of men's feeling of entitlement to others' bodies and fear of speaking up.

I've heard less talk about male-on-male domestic abuse. Recently the singer Tom Goss (who had a minor YouTube hit with the song "Bears" in 2013) made a video about it, which has sparked a bit of sharing, but nothing like what #metoo did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLDheJz9xP0

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2019-10-09, 6:12
by vijayjohn
md0 wrote:Talking about adult men abusing male minors is the only "easy" discussion. Everyone, within a rounding error, agrees that's abuse and wrong.

Or do they? Even when men abuse boys, people often try to protect the abuser, or the abuser himself deflects criticism. Look at the Catholic church scandals, the Boy Scouts scandals, the apologies for child abuse by truck drivers in Pakistan...

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2019-10-09, 7:25
by md0
vijayjohn wrote:
md0 wrote:Talking about adult men abusing male minors is the only "easy" discussion. Everyone, within a rounding error, agrees that's abuse and wrong.

Or do they? Even when men abuse boys, people often try to protect the abuser, or the abuser himself deflects criticism. Look at the Catholic church scandals, the Boy Scouts scandals, the apologies for child abuse by truck drivers in Pakistan...

I should have clarified that I was talking about what I know best: the Greek-speaking world, especially Cyprus. I follow the news closely there and I never so anyone engaging in victim blaming when the victim is a boy, but I've seen it happen when the victim is a girl countless times.

But indeed, I seem to remember a case in - iirc - Spain where the defense used the "he was dressed provocatively" trope in a case against a rapist cleric. Now, US news are unavoidable, , but I don't remember any high profile case that made it into international news that involved victim blaming. What I've seen is the other trope, the "why are you only reporting this now?" dismissal of a complaint.

Edit: That last one is what really gets me. It took me years to understand that my first ever relationship was an emotionally abusive one, and it wasn't until I met other queer people who I felt safe to describe my experiences to and for them to all tell me that what I went through was several standard deviations outside what a typical gay relationship is like. Between the incident and the acceptance, I went on in life considering what happened to me normal, and that ruined almost any other attempt to build a healthy connection with another man. And even now, despite having recognised it, I'm still not over it. So yeah, I hate the "why didn't you report it when it happened" dismissal with burning passion.

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2019-10-13, 20:11
by vijayjohn
Thanks for the clarification! :)

I did see some cases in the US that did involve public victim blaming, but they weren't that prominent, and I doubt they were reported in international media.

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2019-12-22, 1:15
by Gormur
All i remember from school is sexism was the rare situation when a girl of different ethnicity was teased for her appearance. I swear i didn't alter that wording either :|

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2020-02-02, 14:15
by md0
Since Part 2 came out few days ago, might as well post both
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc6QxD2_yQw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nheskbsU5g

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2020-05-20, 21:43
by vijayjohn
Thanks for these videos, although I think some of the data at least in the second video might be inaccurate. Someone did tell me once that the latest figures from the FBI(?) indicate that the rates at which men and women are raped are in fact roughly equal, although they never really showed me their source for saying so. I also vaguely recall reading somewhere that men were raped more often during the Rwandan Genocide than women were, with a female victim saying something like while most women had been victims of rape, all the men had been.

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2020-05-20, 23:48
by Gormur
Good point. I bet the numbers are skewed when you look at countries that have more males than females. Obviously this is an exception to the rule, but still it's interesting to look at

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2020-05-21, 12:24
by md0
Is there any country except the Vatican where the gender ratio of the population is statistically significantly further away from 1:1?

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2020-05-21, 17:17
by Gormur
md0 wrote:Is there any country except the Vatican where the gender ratio of the population is statistically significantly further away from 1:1?
I just meant that Iceland has more males than females. I think about 3 to 1. There are a few other countries like that but I don't remember where exactly; not Western countries :hmm:

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2020-05-21, 17:24
by vijayjohn
Not 3 to 1, close to 1:1

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2020-05-21, 17:49
by Gormur
All right. I was going by statistics that say there are 3 males for every female, etc. I wasn't sure what you meant by close to 1:1 but now I do

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2020-05-21, 18:16
by vijayjohn
Could you please provide a source for any such statistic? Because the latest statistic I've found says approximately 188,000 men and 178,000 women. That's barely over 1.

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2020-05-21, 19:50
by Gormur
Math isn't my forté, but I looked on Wikipedia just now. It said 1.05 males for Iceland. Maybe rounding to 3 isn't right. It might be more like 2.6 or something

Wikipedia claims that 1.01 expresses more males than females, unless I'm reading that wrong :para: :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_sex_ratio

OK, it's not whether or not I understand it, but I'd always been told that most countries had more females than males :hmm:

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2020-05-21, 20:24
by linguoboy
Gormur wrote:Math isn't my forté, but I looked on Wikipedia just now. It said 1.05 males for Iceland. Maybe rounding to 3 isn't right. It might be more like 2.6 or something

That's, um, not at all how rounding works. If anything, you'd round down to 1.0.

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2020-05-21, 21:12
by Gormur
From link above: A ratio above 1, e.g. 1.1, means there are 1.1 males for every 1 female (more males than females). A ratio below 1, e.g. 0.8, means there are 0.8 males for every 1 female (more females than males). A ratio of 1 means there are equal numbers of females and males.[4] The world average for the ratio of males/females is 1.01, which means there are 1.01 males for every female (more males than females).

I read into that and thought 1.01 meant 1:1, since I'd always assumed more women than men. Personally, I still don't believe it if it's saying there are more men. It's supposedly a rare occurrence

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2020-05-21, 22:08
by linguoboy
Gormur wrote:Personally, I still don't believe it if it's saying there are more men. It's supposedly a rare occurrence

According to whom? China--the most populous country in the world--has a ratio of 1.18. That's a total of more than 34 million more men than women. In India--the second most populous--the overall ratio is 1.06, though in parts of North India, it approaches China's. This is what happens when you combine strong social pressure for male children with widespread infanticide and sex-selective abortion.

In that light, Iceland's 1.01 hardly looks noteworthy. All things being equal, humans tend to give birth to more males than females to compensate for the fact that more males die. But in a country with such excellent health care as Iceland, you'd expect fewer preventable deaths and thus an adult sex ratio close to the sex ratio at birth.

Re: [Split] Sexism

Posted: 2020-05-21, 22:18
by Gormur
Yeah that last line of yours is what I emphasize. I was thinking in terms of Western countries and birth control measures :para: :) :hmm: