[Split] Sexism

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md0
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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby md0 » 2019-10-07, 5:01

vijayjohn wrote:Thanks! I find that people don't talk much about men abusing women, but they talk about that more than about men abusing other men.[...] I get the impression that people talk especially rarely about women abusing men, I think even more than about abusive gay relationships.


I think there's a lot of interaction with how either masculinity or homosexuality is discussed in a society.
Talking about adult men abusing male minors is the only "easy" discussion. Everyone, within a rounding error, agrees that's abuse and wrong. Unfortunately, the same is not the case if the victim is a female minor, going by the reactions in recent such cases in Cyprus. A girl is always "a little slut pretending to be an adult and got what's coming from her", this was never said for a raped boy in all the years I follow the news.

If traditional gender roles dominate in a society though, a man raped by a woman is only sympathetic in the "stolen sperm" case. More generally, an abused man is sympathetic if they suffer material exploitation by a woman - exploitation through alimony/child support is the only issue men associations bring up in Cyprus. Other than this abuse of a man's role as a provider, I don't remember any other form of abuse going public that doesn't result to ridicule of victim.

As for gay domestic abuse, I think I have more insight as to why we rarely talk about it. Even 10 years after we stopped being invisible in Cyprus, we still feel like we have to conform to extremely more stringent standards than the wider society, because we "have" to prove we are not all monsters. When "some of us" are abusers, we are afraid of reporting it because homophobes will go "We told you so!". I don't even know how complaints will be treated by investigators if they are made. The fixation on penetration and the belief that the one who penetrates by definition wants to be doing it is pervasive.
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linguoboy
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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby linguoboy » 2019-10-07, 15:14

vijayjohn wrote:Thanks! I find that people don't talk much about men abusing women, but they talk about that more than about men abusing other men. Even when they talk about men abusing other men, it's not usually about domestic sexual abuse in gay relationships

One of the knockoff effects of #metoo was kickstarting this discussion among MSM. Although there was some talk of appropriation but because--as you say--sexual abuse of men by men (outside of prison rape, where it is gleefully reduced to a punchline) is not generally talked about, the general consensus was that this was not just another instance of coopting a woman-centred discussion to make it All About Men. A lot of the same patterns emerge in terms of men's feeling of entitlement to others' bodies and fear of speaking up.

I've heard less talk about male-on-male domestic abuse. Recently the singer Tom Goss (who had a minor YouTube hit with the song "Bears" in 2013) made a video about it, which has sparked a bit of sharing, but nothing like what #metoo did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLDheJz9xP0
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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-10-09, 6:12

md0 wrote:Talking about adult men abusing male minors is the only "easy" discussion. Everyone, within a rounding error, agrees that's abuse and wrong.

Or do they? Even when men abuse boys, people often try to protect the abuser, or the abuser himself deflects criticism. Look at the Catholic church scandals, the Boy Scouts scandals, the apologies for child abuse by truck drivers in Pakistan...

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md0
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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby md0 » 2019-10-09, 7:25

vijayjohn wrote:
md0 wrote:Talking about adult men abusing male minors is the only "easy" discussion. Everyone, within a rounding error, agrees that's abuse and wrong.

Or do they? Even when men abuse boys, people often try to protect the abuser, or the abuser himself deflects criticism. Look at the Catholic church scandals, the Boy Scouts scandals, the apologies for child abuse by truck drivers in Pakistan...

I should have clarified that I was talking about what I know best: the Greek-speaking world, especially Cyprus. I follow the news closely there and I never so anyone engaging in victim blaming when the victim is a boy, but I've seen it happen when the victim is a girl countless times.

But indeed, I seem to remember a case in - iirc - Spain where the defense used the "he was dressed provocatively" trope in a case against a rapist cleric. Now, US news are unavoidable, , but I don't remember any high profile case that made it into international news that involved victim blaming. What I've seen is the other trope, the "why are you only reporting this now?" dismissal of a complaint.

Edit: That last one is what really gets me. It took me years to understand that my first ever relationship was an emotionally abusive one, and it wasn't until I met other queer people who I felt safe to describe my experiences to and for them to all tell me that what I went through was several standard deviations outside what a typical gay relationship is like. Between the incident and the acceptance, I went on in life considering what happened to me normal, and that ruined almost any other attempt to build a healthy connection with another man. And even now, despite having recognised it, I'm still not over it. So yeah, I hate the "why didn't you report it when it happened" dismissal with burning passion.
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Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby vijayjohn » 2019-10-13, 20:11

Thanks for the clarification! :)

I did see some cases in the US that did involve public victim blaming, but they weren't that prominent, and I doubt they were reported in international media.


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