[Split] Sexism

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!

Moderators: Global Moderators, Forum Administrators

Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 16814
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-03-06, 21:32

Varislintu wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:In that case, you'd be shocked to see how Indian men (or perhaps I should go further and say South Asian men) talk about women, just in general. Considering some of the things that women and girls are forced to endure in India, I'm honestly not sure that the situation of women in India is better than that of women in Afghanistan.


Great... I guess I have an inkling, though. I've read about some Indian women killing their girl infants just to spare them the life as a woman (I mean, they themselves state that as a reason for killing them). Of course that's the ultimate extreme, but... I just can't even imagine the life those women must have led and vitnessed all around them. Just think about the amount of women that must be living with PTSD, depression and other mental issues born out of maltreatment and sexual violence. And then those women raise the next generation. I wish the Indian government would realise that these aren't just the personal tragedies of half the population, but that it affects and holds back men as well. It's a problem of the entire society, because the ripples travel far, and therefore important to fight.

I do get, of course, that India is huge with many different cultures in it, and varying degrees of progressive attitudes. The extreme is the extreme, but it makes me so sad nonetheless.

I think you're basically right (although seriously, abortion of female babies is really way too common in India, partly because of dowry), but the way I see it, the thing is that again, it's not just women's rights. There are all kinds of issues that are at least as serious in India, e.g. casteism, and then there's the additional complication that these issues are really not separate. For example, in Bihar (in eastern India), for the past few years, there is a caste war that has been going on for years already. In the course of said war, many lower-caste women have learned to use guns in order to defend themselves because they run a high risk of being raped by higher-caste men as they're just going about their day. So there you can see a clear example of how it isn't just a question of women's rights; it's that combined with the rights of (in this case) lower caste people.

The government is far too corrupt to do anything at all about this war, about casteism in general, about gender violence in general, or really about anything. The police are completely useless because anybody who gives them a bribe that's big enough can get them to do whatever they want, so it doesn't even matter whether something is legal or not; it happens anyway. That's what the problem really is. And what really seems to make a practical difference in the Indian context is education; in parts of India where the literacy rate is relatively high, women are less likely to abort female babies, and people are just generally more likely to have a greater awareness of what their rights are and to stand up for them.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 20256
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby linguoboy » 2015-03-07, 4:02

vijayjohn wrote:Just a few days ago, India's Daughter, a BBC documentary on the 2012 Delhi gang rape case was released. It was planned to be broadcast in India on International Women's day (this Sunday) and was also uploaded on YouTube, but the Indian government blocked it and got YouTube to block it in India as well. The victim's parents and various Bollywood celebrities are protesting the government's decision.
Regardless of whether the government's decision is defensible or not, I thought I'd mention that India's filmmaking community isn't unanimously supportive of Undwin's film. This short sarcastic response to her showed up in my feed today, and it's made me interested in seeking out some more nuanced criticism.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 16814
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-03-07, 5:23

linguoboy wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Just a few days ago, India's Daughter, a BBC documentary on the 2012 Delhi gang rape case was released. It was planned to be broadcast in India on International Women's day (this Sunday) and was also uploaded on YouTube, but the Indian government blocked it and got YouTube to block it in India as well. The victim's parents and various Bollywood celebrities are protesting the government's decision.
Regardless of whether the government's decision is defensible or not, I thought I'd mention that India's filmmaking community isn't unanimously supportive of Undwin's film. This short sarcastic response to her showed up in my feed today, and it's made me interested in seeking out some more nuanced criticism.

A few people in the comments linked to this essay, which I think is definitely more nuanced criticism and makes some really interesting points.

User avatar
Varislintu
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 15297
Joined: 2004-02-09, 13:32
Real Name: M.
Gender: female
Location: Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-03-07, 9:41

vijayjohn wrote: I think you're basically right (although seriously, abortion of female babies is really way too common in India, partly because of dowry),


I meant actual infanticide, where a woman gives birth, discovers it's a girl, and just quietly kills the infant. This happens in every country, but the professed reason the women gave for doing it in the article I read -- not wanting their beloved child to have to go through being a woman in India -- was just pretty stunning.

vijayjohn wrote:but the way I see it, the thing is that again, it's not just women's rights. There are all kinds of issues that are at least as serious in India, e.g. casteism, and then there's the additional complication that these issues are really not separate. For example, in Bihar (in eastern India), for the past few years, there is a caste war that has been going on for years already. In the course of said war, many lower-caste women have learned to use guns in order to defend themselves because they run a high risk of being raped by higher-caste men as they're just going about their day. So there you can see a clear example of how it isn't just a question of women's rights; it's that combined with the rights of (in this case) lower caste people.

The government is far too corrupt to do anything at all about this war, about casteism in general, about gender violence in general, or really about anything. The police are completely useless because anybody who gives them a bribe that's big enough can get them to do whatever they want, so it doesn't even matter whether something is legal or not; it happens anyway. That's what the problem really is. And what really seems to make a practical difference in the Indian context is education; in parts of India where the literacy rate is relatively high, women are less likely to abort female babies, and people are just generally more likely to have a greater awareness of what their rights are and to stand up for them.


Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for shedding more light on the situation. Basically if you can't trust the laws, lawmakers, law enforcers and legal system then yeah, the problems must be very diverse.
Det finns ingen
tröst. Därför
behöver du den inte
(Gösta Ågren)

User avatar
md0
Posts: 6973
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: CY Cyprus (Κύπρος / Kıbrıs)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby md0 » 2015-03-07, 9:50

meidei wrote:A gang of other students from Crete came forward to say that,yes they indeed 'joked with and hazed Vangelis' all those months, because 'he's a Cretan man, he's supposed to be manly and not afraid of anything and anyone' but 'he's still our kin and we are worried about him'. The president of the college said that the school had their suspicions about that gang, but it didn't look serious enough to investigate, before the disappearance.

According to news that come out, it seems like the immediately family also knew what's going on, but didn't want to push for criminal investigation, even after the disappearance.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 16814
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-03-07, 19:40

Varislintu wrote:I meant actual infanticide, where a woman gives birth, discovers it's a girl, and just quietly kills the infant. This happens in every country, but the professed reason the women gave for doing it in the article I read -- not wanting their beloved child to have to go through being a woman in India -- was just pretty stunning.

Oh, OK, I see. Thanks.
Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for shedding more light on the situation. Basically if you can't trust the laws, lawmakers, law enforcers and legal system then yeah, the problems must be very diverse.

Sorry, this is a bit of an OT rant, but I've come to believe that the problems are even worse than that. In India, you can trust almost no one (and to some extent, that's because corruption extends that far). Even your friends may not be trustworthy. That's why family is so important to us; your (biological) family is at least related to you by blood, so it's (supposed to be) relatively likely that you can put your trust in your family. The moment your most trusted family member seems to turn on you, your entire world collapses because there is no longer anyone you can trust. That's probably what happened to my dad; there was no one he placed more trust in than me, and now that I'm no longer doing what we were planning to do together, he no longer feels that he can trust anyone and is struggling to deal with that concept.

User avatar
Varislintu
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 15297
Joined: 2004-02-09, 13:32
Real Name: M.
Gender: female
Location: Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-03-07, 20:52

vijayjohn wrote:Sorry, this is a bit of an OT rant,


No, it's interesting. :)

vijayjohn wrote:but I've come to believe that the problems are even worse than that. In India, you can trust almost no one (and to some extent, that's because corruption extends that far). Even your friends may not be trustworthy. That's why family is so important to us; your (biological) family is at least related to you by blood, so it's (supposed to be) relatively likely that you can put your trust in your family.


Why is that? How does corruption affect also friendships? :hmm:

vijayjohn wrote:The moment your most trusted family member seems to turn on you, your entire world collapses because there is no longer anyone you can trust. That's probably what happened to my dad; there was no one he placed more trust in than me, and now that I'm no longer doing what we were planning to do together, he no longer feels that he can trust anyone and is struggling to deal with that concept.


Hmm, I am commenting as a total outsider, of course, but it feels weird that you just going a different path could count as a breach of trust. Although, well, I think it's pretty common that parents build up mental images of their children and cannot actually cope with or bond with their real children (when they diverge from the mental image). Maybe something like that is going on. It's going on to an extent in my family as well, so my sympathies if that's the case. :roll:
Det finns ingen
tröst. Därför
behöver du den inte
(Gösta Ågren)

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 16814
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-03-08, 7:03

Varislintu wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:Sorry, this is a bit of an OT rant,


No, it's interesting. :)

Thanks. :)
Why is that? How does corruption affect also friendships? :hmm:

Oh, sorry, what I meant was just that you can trust almost no one, and sometimes what causes people to be untrustworthy is corruption. :lol:
Hmm, I am commenting as a total outsider, of course, but it feels weird that you just going a different path could count as a breach of trust. Although, well, I think it's pretty common that parents build up mental images of their children and cannot actually cope with or bond with their real children (when they diverge from the mental image). Maybe something like that is going on. It's going on to an extent in my family as well, so my sympathies if that's the case. :roll:

Well, it's not just going a different path, tbh. (Omg I almost ended up writing like my life story here :lol:). You see, we were trying to start a company together, but he ended up doing almost all the work for it. Neither of us was happy with that, so he tried to get me to commit to working on our company eight hours a day, and I made a promise not to abandon this company. But in the end, I did abandon it anyway because I came to realize that as much as he loves me, I'm capable of surviving on my own without relying on him. So from his perspective, we had an agreement, and I violated it. Naturally, he was upset about that. He was (and probably still is, to some extent) upset about a bunch of other things as well, including me posting on this forum instead of dedicating the time I spend here to doing something that makes money.

User avatar
Varislintu
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 15297
Joined: 2004-02-09, 13:32
Real Name: M.
Gender: female
Location: Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby Varislintu » 2015-03-08, 8:11

vijayjohn wrote:Oh, sorry, what I meant was just that you can trust almost no one, and sometimes what causes people to be untrustworthy is corruption. :lol:


Okay. :)

vijayjohn wrote:Well, it's not just going a different path, tbh. (Omg I almost ended up writing like my life story here :lol:). You see, we were trying to start a company together, but he ended up doing almost all the work for it. Neither of us was happy with that, so he tried to get me to commit to working on our company eight hours a day, and I made a promise not to abandon this company. But in the end, I did abandon it anyway because I came to realize that as much as he loves me, I'm capable of surviving on my own without relying on him. So from his perspective, we had an agreement, and I violated it. Naturally, he was upset about that. He was (and probably still is, to some extent) upset about a bunch of other things as well, including me posting on this forum instead of dedicating the time I spend here to doing something that makes money.


Ah, I see. Still, aren't you kind of young (younger than me)? Surely it's understandable that young adults make even drastic changes in plans for their life. And especially if the chage in direction is towards a goal that feels more right to them, I think it's useless to hold that against them. Of course it can be annoying for the parent, but in the end expecting young adult not to change their minds about things is like trying to contain water in a sieve. :P

But I may be unfair to your father -- I come from a very different culture than the "depend on your family" culture, and that affects my point of view. In Finland independence is valued above almost all else. That's not solely a good thing.
Det finns ingen
tröst. Därför
behöver du den inte
(Gösta Ågren)

vijayjohn
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 16814
Joined: 2013-01-10, 8:49
Real Name: Vijay John
Gender: male
Location: Austin
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-03-08, 9:44

Yeah, I mean, my dad has certainly heard of people pursuing careers that are completely different from what they originally set out to do (he's even tried to make me read at least one article about such people), but I don't think he can imagine why anyone would plan their careers, start doing what they needed to do for that purpose, and then just totally change their minds about it all of a sudden. Besides, I can't seem to think of anybody who was born and raised in India and did anything like that, because probably for all such people I can think of, getting a job is just something you have to do in order to survive and take care of your family, not something where you can ask for much in the way of comfort. There are certainly people born and raised here who did that, and that can be difficult for my dad to understand as well. I remember him being proud of the fact that my brother and I both went to grad school and puzzled as to why none of his nephews or nieces has done that.

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 1746
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Gender: male
Location: Boston
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby Yasna » 2016-07-21, 16:14

Why Men Want to Marry Melanias and Raise Ivankas

A rather insightful article, although I can't really identify with those men. Ivanka is my idea of a dream wife, her only flaw being that she backs Donald Trump to be president.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10365
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Real Name: Μέγας Αλέξανδρος
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2016-07-22, 4:01

I had no idea you were into femdom.

Image

User avatar
IpseDixit
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9042
Joined: 2013-05-06, 21:06
Gender: male
Location: Bologna / Milan / Florence
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby IpseDixit » 2016-08-09, 12:43

So, an Italian newspaper (luckily quite a provincial one, with a small readership) deemed it ok, in 2016, to nickname the Italian female Olympic archery team "the chubby trio". There was quite a widespread popular outrage and they were forced to apologize, but I still can't believe that the editorial staff thought "chubby trio? Yeah, good idea!".

User avatar
Varislintu
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 15297
Joined: 2004-02-09, 13:32
Real Name: M.
Gender: female
Location: Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby Varislintu » 2016-08-10, 9:12

IpseDixit wrote:So, an Italian newspaper (luckily quite a provincial one, with a small readership) deemed it ok, in 2016, to nickname the Italian female Olympic archery team "the chubby trio". There was quite a widespread popular outrage and they were forced to apologize, but I still can't believe that the editorial staff thought "chubby trio? Yeah, good idea!".


Jebus christ...

It makes me especially irritated as I personally find athlete women to be a breath of incredibly fresh air in the group "women who get to talk on TV". There are lots of women on TV obviously, and who am I to say women can't be as ditzy and vapid and superficial as they want, but good lord is it nice to once in a while hear a level-headed, ambitious, super-focused, talented woman talk about something that doesn't involve clothing, cocktails or pugs. Sports is one of the few arenas where women spark media interest in something that can have nothing to do with their looks, so it's sad when some reporters have to just force them, too, into that appearance-first mold. As if they can't even see any other way to deal with women in a media setting.
Det finns ingen
tröst. Därför
behöver du den inte
(Gösta Ågren)

User avatar
IpseDixit
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9042
Joined: 2013-05-06, 21:06
Gender: male
Location: Bologna / Milan / Florence
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby IpseDixit » 2016-08-10, 11:36

Varislintu wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:So, an Italian newspaper (luckily quite a provincial one, with a small readership) deemed it ok, in 2016, to nickname the Italian female Olympic archery team "the chubby trio". There was quite a widespread popular outrage and they were forced to apologize, but I still can't believe that the editorial staff thought "chubby trio? Yeah, good idea!".


Jebus christ...


What I find even more disturbing is that almost definitely they aren't even overweight (maybe only one out of three has a BMI slightly above normal), of course such kinds of nicknames are never justifiable in any circumstances, even if they were morbidly obese, but in this case it's even more outraging.

Here's the so-called "chubby trio":

Image

User avatar
IpseDixit
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 9042
Joined: 2013-05-06, 21:06
Gender: male
Location: Bologna / Milan / Florence
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby IpseDixit » 2016-08-14, 6:53

Image

User avatar
languagepotato
Posts: 438
Joined: 2013-01-22, 7:17
Gender: male
Country: NL The Netherlands (Nederland)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby languagepotato » 2017-04-10, 10:07

So, this conversation happened

J: So, i'm reading this book about tinder and it's very sexist.
Me: oh really, why is that?
J: it's about tips and tricks to get girls on tinder.
C: ooh, where can i buy that book?
J. that's so sexist, all men are sooo sexist
my thoughts: (first of all, i don't understand why one would want to read that book (it sounds sleazy), secondly, not all men are sexist. yes, sadly there are a lot of sexist men (and sexist women), but not all.)

to top it all of, in a previous conversation with J, she said that men are never honest.

smh
native: (ar-MA) (nl)
very comfortable: (en-US)
somewhat comfortable: (de) (es) (af)
forgetting: (fr) (ar-arb)
touristy level: (ro) (sv)(ber)(pl)
someday hopefully: (ja) (sq) (cs) (tr) and many others

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 20256
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby linguoboy » 2017-04-10, 17:19

languagepotato wrote:my thoughts: (first of all, i don't understand why one would want to read that book (it sounds sleazy)

You don't understand why someone would read it looking for advice or you don't understand why anyone would read it at all?

languagepotato wrote:secondly, not all men are sexist.

You could be right about that, but I'd have to take it on faith. So far every man I've ever met has been sexist. It's just a question of degree. That doesn't mean that there aren't any men out there who aren't the least bit sexist, but they'd have to have a pretty unusual background. It would make a good book, actually.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
languagepotato
Posts: 438
Joined: 2013-01-22, 7:17
Gender: male
Country: NL The Netherlands (Nederland)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby languagepotato » 2017-04-10, 18:54

linguoboy wrote:
languagepotato wrote:my thoughts: (first of all, i don't understand why one would want to read that book (it sounds sleazy)

You don't understand why someone would read it looking for advice or you don't understand why anyone would read it at all?


The first one
native: (ar-MA) (nl)
very comfortable: (en-US)
somewhat comfortable: (de) (es) (af)
forgetting: (fr) (ar-arb)
touristy level: (ro) (sv)(ber)(pl)
someday hopefully: (ja) (sq) (cs) (tr) and many others

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 20256
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: [Split] Sexism

Postby linguoboy » 2017-04-10, 19:58

languagepotato wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
languagepotato wrote:my thoughts: (first of all, i don't understand why one would want to read that book (it sounds sleazy)

You don't understand why someone would read it looking for advice or you don't understand why anyone would read it at all?

The first one

A lot of men (not all! my fragile flower) feel entitled to sex. They have been encouraged by society to view it not so much as a natural part of a loving consensual relationship as something which women (bzw. other men) capriciously withhold from them. And if someone's trying to weasel out of giving you something they owe you, than it's acceptable to find ways to "trick" them into putting out.

This, in a nutshell, is the origin of the whole online culture known as the seduction community or "PUAs".
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests