[Split] Sexism

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md0
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby md0 » 2014-01-26, 22:14

I stressed the point of such actions been repeated daily. I can't stress it enough if you simply can't see the significance.

Also, women who opened doors for men in thw past used to be their maids,it was their job. Men did it out of paternalism.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-01-26, 22:14

Johntm, I don't think that you're trying to understand their point of view. You seem to be only trying to prove them wrong. You say that they are 'whiny' and 'unreasonable'. How can you even ask them to think about you and your feelings and intentions when you disregard their feelings in such an arrogant manner? How can you ask from them to understand you when you aren't even trying to understand them? (And I suspect they do understand you much more than you do them.)

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-26, 22:16

languagepotato wrote:i'm still not sure how me opening the door for whomever happens to be behind me is a legitimate reason for them to get mad at me because i should have magically read their mind and see that they don't appreciate it and that i should apologise for trying to be polite.


This.

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-01-26, 22:20

languagepotato wrote:i'm still not sure how me opening the door for whomever happens to be behind me is a legitimate reason for them to get mad at me because i should have magically read their mind and see that they don't appreciate it and should apologise for trying to be polite.

Social roles and norms are changing. Misunderstandings are bound to occur. Don't take it to heart.

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Varislintu » 2014-01-26, 22:56

IpseDixit wrote:
but you already seem ready to dismiss that as "muh feelings". well, you arw within your rights to feel that way of course, butby being likw that, people will think that you are behaving in a jerk-ish way. you can ignore that, but if it bothers you that people think of you like that, then instead of automatically blaming them for being oversensitive and stupid, try to understand them. you are not doing yourself any favours by thinking that people who don't appreciate how you bwhave are retardwd.


So we shouldn't authomatically blame them for being oversensitive or whatever but they can authomatically blame guys for being sexist...

I'd daresay that this double standard is actually sexist against guys...


The slate of society won't wipe clean so easily, I'm afraid. Our culture comes from tens of thousands of years of harsh sexism. We will carry that baggage in cultural memory even after the proportion of sexist men is down to 5% (which it surely isn't yet). I'm sorry that you are a non-sexist man in this era, you will catch some crossfire for it, but at least you didn't have to be a woman in the earlier eons, eh? :P
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-26, 23:14

Don't misunderstand me but for that matter I'm afraid you won't achive much if you behave like hysterical nuts with strangers...

I'm sorry that you are a non-sexist man in this era, you will catch some crossfire for it, but at least you didn't have to be a woman in the earlier eons, eh? :)


If we exclude a few civilizations, I think people like me were treated much worse than women, this is definitely true for the last 2000 years at least :)

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby languagepotato » 2014-01-26, 23:27

IpseDixit wrote:Don't misunderstand me but for that matter I'm afraid you won't achive much if you behave like hysterical nuts with strangers...

I'm sorry that you are a non-sexist man in this era, you will catch some crossfire for it, but at least you didn't have to be a woman in the earlier eons, eh? :)


If we exclude a few civilizations, I think people like me were treated much worse than women, this is definitely true for the last 2000 years at least :)


also, i'm so not the fighting type but i'm pretty sure i would have been put in the army, and if i would've been lucky i would be working myself to death instead.

so, yeah, gender roles were pretty f*cked up for both genders even back then. and to complete the back then analogy, me being fairly dark-skinned wouldn't be in my advantage either
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Varislintu » 2014-01-27, 0:06

So somehow I feel it should be even easier for you guys to understand that you could blow a fuse if someone, cluelessly, said "I like homosexuals, because they're more caring, like women", or "How about you play the drums, since you obviously have African ancestry so you must be good at it!". They're compliments, aren't they? If you lose your temper and snap at these completely innocent comments, you are utterly hysterical looneys, and are discriminating against straights and whites, too!
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Varislintu » 2014-01-27, 0:12

IpseDixit wrote:Don't misunderstand me but for that matter I'm afraid you won't achive much if you behave like hysterical nuts with strangers...


Those people are most likely not trying to achieve something. They're having a bad reaction because they personally have reached their personal limit, or have been personally triggered.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-27, 0:14

Is that even comparable to opening a door? :lol:

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby johntm » 2014-01-27, 0:15

meidei wrote:I stressed the point of such actions been repeated daily. I can't stress it enough if you simply can't see the significance.

I stress the point that you don't fucking know if the actions are sexist or not, so you shouldn't assume they are (because that is, in fact, sexist). Regardless of how often they happen, a lot of people holding the door open for you doesn't mean they're sexist, it may mean they're just nice people (and maybe a couple are sexist, but again, you don't have evidence of this).

Ludwig Whitby wrote:How can you even ask them to think about you and your feelings and intentions when you disregard their feelings in such an arrogant manner? How can you ask from them to understand you when you aren't even trying to understand them?

I'm disregarding their feelings because they have no base in reality. Yeah, you "think" it was sexist, but there's literally no evidence it was, so it's no more than a feeling or hunch.

Varislintu wrote:So somehow I feel it should be even easier for you guys to understand that you could blow a fuse if someone, cluelessly, said "I like homosexuals, because they're more caring, like women", or "How about you play the drums, since you obviously have African ancestry so you must be good at it!". They're compliments, aren't they? If you lose your temper and snap at these completely innocent comments, you are utterly hysterical looneys, and are discriminating against straights and whites, too!

This makes literally no sense to me. I think I have an idea of what you're getting at, but please explain more.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Varislintu » 2014-01-27, 0:16

IpseDixit wrote:Is that even comparable to opening a door? :lol:


At least try to get my point, please. :)
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Varislintu » 2014-01-27, 0:30

I was trying to say that the world is full of well-intending people who without realizing it or intending to, may trigger in someone "feelings of inferiority due to characteristic X". Sometimes, a person who is triggered this way may react in an unreasonable way, snap or act rudely. In and of itself, would it be nicer of them to have been able to keep it together? Yes, it would have, we all agree so far. Does the well-intending person have a right to feel a bit chagrined for having been made the target of another person's outburst? Yes. Does it show tact to go rant about the outbursting person's "hysterics", being "nuts" or "retarded"? I think no: it shows a lack of understanding of the possible oppression-related cultural background that may have caused the outburst.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Yasna » 2014-01-27, 0:32

Varislintu wrote:So somehow I feel it should be even easier for you guys to understand that you could blow a fuse if someone, cluelessly, said "I like homosexuals, because they're more caring, like women", or "How about you play the drums, since you obviously have African ancestry so you must be good at it!". They're compliments, aren't they? If you lose your temper and snap at these completely innocent comments, you are utterly hysterical looneys, and are discriminating against straights and whites, too!

Apples and oranges. Those "compliments" are inherently racist/ignorant. Holding the door open for someone could be sexist, but it isn't inherently so.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby johntm » 2014-01-27, 0:38

Varislintu wrote:Does it show tact to go rant about the outbursting person's "hysterics", being "nuts" or "retarded"? I think no: it shows a lack of understanding of the possible oppression-related cultural background that may have caused the outburst.

I have a lack of understanding about this person being so oppressed because people hold the door open for them? I can live with that.
Question to everyone: If holding a door open is sexist, what about this scenario: A girl in front of a guy at a checkout line drops a couple coins (or her wallet, or whatever). The guy picks it up (as it happens to fall right at his feet). Is it sexist? Is he saying she can't do it herself, and thus doing it for her? Or is he just a nice person? Is this the evil patriarchy at work?
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Varislintu » 2014-01-27, 0:43

Yasna wrote:
Varislintu wrote:So somehow I feel it should be even easier for you guys to understand that you could blow a fuse if someone, cluelessly, said "I like homosexuals, because they're more caring, like women", or "How about you play the drums, since you obviously have African ancestry so you must be good at it!". They're compliments, aren't they? If you lose your temper and snap at these completely innocent comments, you are utterly hysterical looneys, and are discriminating against straights and whites, too!

Apples and oranges. Those "compliments" are inherently racist/ignorant. Holding the door open for someone could be sexist, but it isn't inherently so.


The point in my opinion is that someone who is upset enough to call a stranger a pig will have interpreted just as much hurtful ignorance into that door gesture. Would it be nicer if they realized not everyone holds the door only for women? Yes. But from their point of view, their reaction has a point, does it not?

Johntm, I think you still struggle with understanding the difference between a gesture being objectively sexist and subjectively interpreted as sexist, and also slightly misunderstood what the oppression had to do with this (it was its historical aspect).
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby johntm » 2014-01-27, 0:48

Varislintu wrote:Johntm, I think you still struggle with understanding the difference between a gesture being objectively sexist and subjectively interpreted as sexist, and also slightly misunderstood what the oppression had to do with this (it was its historical aspect).

I understand the difference, what I don't understand is the people who flip out because of their interpretation rather than logically looking at it to see if their interpretation was correct. Yeah, to them, using their (false) interpretation, the outburst is justified. But they should take the time to think about it logically.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-01-27, 0:53

The other day I read an interview with some random psychiatrist who claimed that too many women in government would cause stagnation, because most women have PMS, which makes them angry, guys solve everything faster and obviously the females only get into politics, because their husbands tell them what to do :evil: BTW our society usually pays so little attention to gender that it was hardly even discussed that the new prime minister is the first female in that post

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Varislintu » 2014-01-27, 0:56

johntm wrote:
Varislintu wrote:Johntm, I think you still struggle with understanding the difference between a gesture being objectively sexist and subjectively interpreted as sexist, and also slightly misunderstood what the oppression had to do with this (it was its historical aspect).

I understand the difference, what I don't understand is the people who flip out because of their interpretation rather than logically looking at it to see if their interpretation was correct. Yeah, to them, using their (false) interpretation, the outburst is justified. But they should take the time to think about it logically.


Thing is, it's in the nature of emotional outbursts to not be well thought through. If they had been in control, or alternatively thought about it logically, they would probably not have snapped.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-27, 0:58

it shows a lack of understanding of the possible oppression-related cultural background that may have caused the outburst.


I don't know, I personally think that this borders on paranoia... I could understand your reasoning for other, more manifestly sexit things, but in the case of holding a door open, it still baffles me, since if you live in nowdays' society you should know that this is a gesture which has been stripped of any sexist meaning by now...

Moreover, as john says, where does this thing end exactly? Should we arrive at the point where men are afraid of helping women in any way?


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