[Split] Sexism

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[Split] Sexism

Postby md0 » 2014-01-26, 17:41

-----
Speaking of sexism: we were just at the bakery, my and her. At the teller, the cashier kept talking to me, a man, even though I am ten years younger, I wasn't paying, nor responding to the questions. My friend did ("I'll be paying cash" etc). The woman at the teller always addressed me. When we got back in the car we wondered "Was the the most obvious example of patriarchy at work?"
-----

* When people always think that they should do favours for you, even the less significant of them is enough to trigger you. Walk in their shoes before you call them 'retarded'.
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[Split] Sexism

Postby johntm » 2014-01-26, 19:07

meidei wrote:So yeah, it's not retarded when people don't like unwanted favours, even if it's opening a door*.

* When people always think that they should do favours for you, even the less significant of them is enough to trigger you. Walk in their shoes before you call them 'retarded'.

I would think paying for your friend (after the friend has told you not to) is a little different than holding the door open for a random person. I just can't imagine how bored a person must be with their life that they need to create drama over a fucking door.
And was the "it can be classist" towards this too? If so, how? And why do we need to try and create some kind of -ist out of every little thing?

When we got back in the car we wondered "Was the the most obvious example of patriarchy at work?"

Why does it have to be the patriarchy? Why isn't it just one person acting weird/stupid?
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby md0 » 2014-01-26, 20:03

When people always think that they should do favours for you, even the less significant of them is enough to trigger you. Walk in their shoes before you call them 'retarded'.


You really need to grasp that concept. Being repeatedly treated differently because of who you are. At some point, you need to express your discontent, even if the action that triggered it appears insignificant to the one doing it to you.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Lur » 2014-01-26, 20:25

meidei wrote:
When people always think that they should do favours for you, even the less significant of them is enough to trigger you. Walk in their shoes before you call them 'retarded'.


You really need to grasp that concept. Being repeatedly treated differently because of who you are. At some point, you need to express your discontent, even if the action that triggered it appears insignificant to the one doing it to you.

This a thousand times.

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby johntm » 2014-01-26, 20:32

meidei wrote:You really need to grasp that concept. Being repeatedly treated differently because of who you are. At some point, you need to express your discontent, even if the action that triggered it appears insignificant to the one doing it to you.

Repeatedly treated different? In your case, yeah. In the one I'm talking about, no. How is it being treated different if we do it for everyone?
Maybe that's why I've never seen anyone complain about it here, but we do it for everyone.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby languagepotato » 2014-01-26, 20:43

johntm wrote:
meidei wrote:You really need to grasp that concept. Being repeatedly treated differently because of who you are. At some point, you need to express your discontent, even if the action that triggered it appears insignificant to the one doing it to you.

Repeatedly treated different? In your case, yeah. In the one I'm talking about, no. How is it being treated different if we do it for everyone?
Maybe that's why I've never seen anyone complain about it here, but we do it for everyone.


the part i put in bold, well, i was going to say that exactly.
i'm just trying to be a nice guy, though i agree with meidei about retards being a misnomer, i'd rather call them assholes.
with them i mean people who get mad at me when i'm trying to be nice and polite
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Varislintu » 2014-01-26, 21:02

What meidei is trying to say is that you guys could try to have a little bit of empathy/understanding at their outbursts, and understand that your action was probably only the straw that broke the camel's back that day.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby johntm » 2014-01-26, 21:06

Varislintu wrote:What meidei is trying to say is that you guys could try to have a little bit of empathy/understanding at their outbursts, and understand that your action was probably only the straw that broke the camel's back that day.

I can understand having a shitty day and your attitude reflecting that, but snapping at someone for no reason just means you need better self-control.
I realize this will probably degrade into something akin to "you just don't understand them, blah blah blah", but seriously, we've all had really shitty days where we feel like punching someone in the face for just talking to us. Gotta have the self-control and the ability to think about the other person (yes, the other person) and just keep the outburst inside of you. Find a constructive outlet to get rid of the anger. It's a bit childish IMO to just have outbursts and then blame it on "muh emotions!" and to take no responsibility for it (and no, I'm not pointing out anyone here in particular, talking in generalizations).

Edit: And despite what I typed up there, I'd still be empathetic to someone having a shitty day. Just realize you're (general) not some special snowflake and everyone has days like that, so no need to be super pissy to everyone.

IpseDixit wrote:I could understand the irritation only if the guy in question did that in a manifestly flirtatious manner, but I'm positive this is just a small minority.

This, but I've never seen it. Shit, if I did I'd probably say something to the guy.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-26, 21:12

You really need to grasp that concept. Being repeatedly treated differently because of who you are. At some point, you need to express your discontent, even if the action that triggered it appears insignificant to the one doing it to you.


I do understand where you're coming from, but when it's about such innocuous habits as opening/pulling a door, well, if you (and I mean a general you) have a problem with that, then you're bordering on paranoia...

Me personally, I consider it an act of kindness and a sign that people are still not completely uncaring of others.

I could understand the irritation only if the guy in question did that in a manifestly flirtatious manner, but I'm positive this is just a small minority.

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby languagepotato » 2014-01-26, 21:15

johntm wrote:
Varislintu wrote:What meidei is trying to say is that you guys could try to have a little bit of empathy/understanding at their outbursts, and understand that your action was probably only the straw that broke the camel's back that day.

I can understand having a shitty day and your attitude reflecting that, but snapping at someone for no reason just means you need better self-control.


yup, and if you're gonna snap, at least snap at someone who's actually being a jerk.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby Varislintu » 2014-01-26, 21:15

johntm wrote:I can understand having a shitty day and your attitude reflecting that, but snapping at someone for no reason just means you need better self-control.


But consider this. They are mistaking your polite, gender-neutral gesture for sexism, because that is what it used to be. So after little sexist incident after little sexist incident, day after day, year after year, they happen to cross paths with you, and your gesture, which they interpret differently from you, breaks their temper. Sure, you can think them assholes, but in the end you have no idea of what kind of "polite" crap they have been putting up with until then due to being, in this case, women. You are technically in the right that it's impolite to burst out, but it doesn't really become you to huff and puff about it, considering you will not have to deal with what they deal with.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-26, 21:25

Varislintu wrote:But consider this. They are mistaking your polite, gender-neutral gesture for sexism, because that is what it used to be. So after little sexist incident after little sexist incident, day after day, year after year, they happen to cross paths with you, and your gesture, which they interpret differently from you, breaks their temper. Sure, you can think them assholes, but in the end you have no idea of what kind of "polite" crap they have been putting up with until then due to being, in this case, women. You are technically in the right that it's impolite to burst out, but it doesn't really become you to huff and puff about it, considering you will not have to deal with what they deal with.


Yeah but why not the other way around too? Couldn't they, too, have some empathy to change perspective? To try to understand that maybe, just maybe, not everything is motivated by sexism/patriarachalism/classism?

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby languagepotato » 2014-01-26, 21:27

Varislintu wrote:
johntm wrote:I can understand having a shitty day and your attitude reflecting that, but snapping at someone for no reason just means you need better self-control.


But consider this. They are mistaking your polite, gender-neutral gesture for sexism, because that is what it used to be. So after little sexist incident after little sexist incident, day after day, year after year, they happen to cross paths with you, and your gesture, which they interpret differently from you, breaks their temper. Sure, you can think them assholes, but in the end you have no idea of what kind of "polite" crap they have been putting up with until then due to being, in this case, women. You are technically in the right that it's impolite to burst out, but it doesn't really become you to huff and puff about it, considering you will not have to deal with what they deal with.


i agree partially, i understand them getting angry at what they perceive as sexism, but still, at least say: 'i find that gesture to be sexist' instead of 'YOU SEXIST PIG'. then they can get mad at people who say 'chivalry' and get explanation from people who are actual polite.

i get to deal with sexism a lot too, you wouldn't imagine how many times i've heard 'but...you're a GUY!' sure i get mad, but that's no reason for me to be an asshole about it

also, what IpseDixit said
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby md0 » 2014-01-26, 21:29

On that matter, I suggest watching the latest ideachannel videi on trolling. during filming, the youtuber has that epiphany: even a silly trolling incident can bring a person to its limits when their whole life was pure hostile bullying.
your intention doesn't matter. if a person was always treated as a weakling who needs a man to help her, even you doing it automatically without thinking about it comes across as offensive.

but you already seem ready to dismiss that as "muh feelings". well, you arw within your rights to feel that way of course, butby being likw that, people will think that you are behaving in a jerk-ish way. you can ignore that, but if it bothers you that people think of you like that, then instead of automatically blaming them for being oversensitive and stupid, try to understand them. you are not doing yourself any favours by thinking that people who don't appreciate how you bwhave are retardwd.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby johntm » 2014-01-26, 21:34

IpseDixit wrote:Yeah but why not the other way around too? Couldn't they, too, have some empathy to change perspective? To try to understand that maybe, just maybe, not everything is motivated by sexism/patriarachalism/classism?

This. It's a bit sexist to assume everyone being a nice guy (not "friend-zoned nice guy", as I really don't fit in that category) is actually sexist.

meidei wrote:your intention doesn't matter.

It's a bit inconsiderate to not consider a person's intentions. Yeah, there are times when intentions may not matter as much (I don't think drunk drivers have the intention of killing people, but they do and should be punished), but I don't think this is really one.
if a person was always treated as a weakling who needs a man to help her, even you doing it automatically without thinking about it comes across as offensive.
Great, she needs to analyze the situation and figure out if she's justified in being offended or not.
you can ignore that, but if it bothers you that people think of you like that, then instead of automatically blaming them for being oversensitive and stupid, try to understand them.

I normally do, but it shouldn't be one-sided. You (impersonal you here) can't sit there and complain about me needed to understand your side of a misunderstanding when you aren't considering my side. Maybe you have encountered sexism before, and I can understand it sets you off, but try to understand me, and that I'm just being a considerate person.

And I saw you mentioned something about bullying, please keep in mind most of my childhood I was bullied and was somewhat of an outcast, too. So it's not like I'm someone with no experience on it speaking.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby languagepotato » 2014-01-26, 21:37

meidei wrote:On that matter, I suggest watching the latest ideachannel videi on trolling. during filming, the youtuber has that epiphany: even a silly trolling incident can bring a person to its limits when their whole life was pure hostile bullying.
your intention doesn't matter. if a person was always treated as a weakling who needs a man to help her, even you doing it automatically without thinking about it comes across as offensive.

but you already seem ready to dismiss that as "muh feelings". well, you arw within your rights to feel that way of course, butby being likw that, people will think that you are behaving in a jerk-ish way. you can ignore that, but if it bothers you that people think of you like that, then instead of automatically blaming them for being oversensitive and stupid, try to understand them. you are not doing yourself any favours by thinking that people who don't appreciate how you bwhave are retardwd.


i never said they were retards, i said they were assholes for being an ass about a polite gesture that can be interpreted as something sexist and that they should politely tell that they think it's sexist in which the other party (the door-opener in this case) can explain that he/she opens the door for everyone out of sheer politeness.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-26, 21:40

but you already seem ready to dismiss that as "muh feelings". well, you arw within your rights to feel that way of course, butby being likw that, people will think that you are behaving in a jerk-ish way. you can ignore that, but if it bothers you that people think of you like that, then instead of automatically blaming them for being oversensitive and stupid, try to understand them. you are not doing yourself any favours by thinking that people who don't appreciate how you bwhave are retardwd.


So we shouldn't authomatically blame them for being oversensitive or whatever but they can authomatically blame guys for being sexist...

I'd daresay that this double standard is actually sexist against guys...

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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby md0 » 2014-01-26, 21:59

If the person not having to deal with that behaviour on a daily basis doesn't show good will, it's unreasonable to demand that the person who's having a nervous breakdown after being treated like that on a continuous basis does show the good will first.
You can apologise to someone first, and when they feel better, they will be able to think about your intentions and apologise in turn.

as fir double standards, I guess the practice used to be more common performed by men towards women. but now that women can have, sometimes, more social capital than some men and other women. as what I described.
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby johntm » 2014-01-26, 22:05

meidei wrote:If the person not having to deal with that behaviour on a daily basis doesn't show good will, it's unreasonable to demand that the person who's having a nervous breakdown after being treated like that on a continuous basis does show the good will first.
It's unreasonable to have a nervous breakdown over what may not even be a sexist action. And even if they encounter this on a daily basis, how do they know it's all sexist and not just people being nice?
All the Northern girls that come down here for school said they were pleasantly surprised at how nice the guys were, for example holding doors and whatnot.

You can apologise to someone first, and when they feel better, they will be able to think about your intentions and apologise in turn.
I'm not apologizing when I did nothing wrong. They're being fucking whiny over nothing.

as fir double standards, I guess the practice used to be more common performed by men towards women. but now that women can have, sometimes, more social capital than some men and other women. as what I described.
Yeah, sexism used to be really common, but how do you know holding doors open was always that way? I doubt people just started holding doors open for both sexes recently, I'm sure it was always a thing down here, so would it have been sexist even if they did it for everyone?
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Re: Random complaints and advice thread 3

Postby languagepotato » 2014-01-26, 22:13

i'm still not sure how me opening the door for whomever happens to be behind me is a legitimate reason for them to get mad at me because i should have magically read their mind and see that they don't appreciate it and that i should apologise for trying to be polite.
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