Riots in Kiev

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby mōdgethanc » 2015-02-22, 3:46

Now you will probably say that Ukraine and other countries in Eastern Europe are sovereign countries who can align with whoever they want, especially if their great power neighbor treats them poorly. But that's just not realistic given the nature of great powers, past and present.
Seems to work fine for Japan, Korea and Taiwan.
So however noble the US and EU's intentions were, and however much the Ukrainian people deserve better, the EU and US still helped steer towards this disaster.
They still aren't the ones who invaded Ukraine.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-02-22, 8:08

mōdgethanc wrote:
Now you will probably say that Ukraine and other countries in Eastern Europe are sovereign countries who can align with whoever they want, especially if their great power neighbor treats them poorly. But that's just not realistic given the nature of great powers, past and present.
Seems to work fine for Japan, Korea and Taiwan.

Because nothing is more convincing then giving examples of countries on the other side of the globe, with completely different cultures, societies and histories, which have managed to create a significant economic growth in a different historical time (during the Cold War). Apples and oranges.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby vijayjohn » 2015-02-22, 8:52

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:
Now you will probably say that Ukraine and other countries in Eastern Europe are sovereign countries who can align with whoever they want, especially if their great power neighbor treats them poorly. But that's just not realistic given the nature of great powers, past and present.
Seems to work fine for Japan, Korea and Taiwan.

Because nothing is more convincing then giving examples of countries on the other side of the globe, with completely different cultures, societies and histories, which have managed to create a significant economic growth in a different historical time (during the Cold War). Apples and oranges.

How does that matter? Yasna was saying that great powers as a whole do not work that way, and that's what mōdgethanc was addressing. :?

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-02-22, 9:07

vijayjohn wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:
Now you will probably say that Ukraine and other countries in Eastern Europe are sovereign countries who can align with whoever they want, especially if their great power neighbor treats them poorly. But that's just not realistic given the nature of great powers, past and present.
Seems to work fine for Japan, Korea and Taiwan.

Because nothing is more convincing then giving examples of countries on the other side of the globe, with completely different cultures, societies and histories, which have managed to create a significant economic growth in a different historical time (during the Cold War). Apples and oranges.

How does that matter? Yasna was saying that great powers as a whole do not work that way, and that's what mōdgethanc was addressing. :?

South Korea wouldn't exist without UN army mission. Taiwan wouldn't exist without the US navy. And Japan would've been a Soviet/Chinese puppet state without USA. USA needed all these countries to become strong and friendly to the West in order to contain communism. (the domino effect)

There is no such threat today and USA won't be committed to helping anyone in Eastern Europe.

If anything I can see the opposite. Crimea, Novorossia and South Ossettia are mutatis mutandis South Korea, Japan and Taiwan, while Georgia and Ukraine are mutatis mutandis China and North Korea. All of the countries followed these three steps:

-Revolution
-Civil war, as some parts of the country don't agree with the revolution
-Foreign power helps preserve the rebel state

Although I can see your views as well. Good guys - ours. Bad guys - theirs.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Sol Invictus » 2015-02-22, 16:50

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:
Now you will probably say that Ukraine and other countries in Eastern Europe are sovereign countries who can align with whoever they want, especially if their great power neighbor treats them poorly. But that's just not realistic given the nature of great powers, past and present.
Seems to work fine for Japan, Korea and Taiwan.

Because nothing is more convincing then giving examples of countries on the other side of the globe, with completely different cultures, societies and histories, which have managed to create a significant economic growth in a different historical time (during the Cold War). Apples and oranges.

How does that matter? Yasna was saying that great powers as a whole do not work that way, and that's what mōdgethanc was addressing. :?

South Korea wouldn't exist without UN army mission. Taiwan wouldn't exist without the US navy. And Japan would've been a Soviet/Chinese puppet state without USA. USA needed all these countries to become strong and friendly to the West in order to contain communism. (the domino effect)

There is no such threat today and USA won't be committed to helping anyone in Eastern Europe.

If anything I can see the opposite. Crimea, Novorossia and South Ossettia are mutatis mutandis South Korea, Japan and Taiwan, while Georgia and Ukraine are mutatis mutandis China and North Korea. All of the countries followed these three steps:

-Revolution
-Civil war, as some parts of the country don't agree with the revolution
-Foreign power helps preserve the rebel state

Although I can see your views as well. Good guys - ours. Bad guys - theirs.


Those are your arguments, not what Yasna said, you can't ask others to provide arguments only about specific case, if the initial argument was about superpowers in general. And speaking about views - I find that people arguing about superpowers and "ex-cons" simply are defending the idea that "the strong do as they can and the weak suffer what they must", which is a rather dated political concept not a fact of life and just because people in the past acted in accordance with that belief does not mean that we should not try to look past it now.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Yasna » 2015-02-22, 18:04

mōdgethanc wrote:
Now you will probably say that Ukraine and other countries in Eastern Europe are sovereign countries who can align with whoever they want, especially if their great power neighbor treats them poorly. But that's just not realistic given the nature of great powers, past and present.
Seems to work fine for Japan, Korea and Taiwan.

We are talking about great powers here. Japan, Korea, and Taiwan came under the influence of the US at a time when China was at rock bottom around the end of the century of humiliation. China of this era was not a great power, since it had few to none modern weapons and its economy was minuscule. It is hard to imagine that China would have tolerated the US intervening in its backyard if it had been a great power at that time.

As Stephen Walt has mentioned, one of the big questions of this century is How Long Will China Tolerate America’s Role in Asia?

So however noble the US and EU's intentions were, and however much the Ukrainian people deserve better, the EU and US still helped steer towards this disaster.

They still aren't the ones who invaded Ukraine.

Okay, Mr. Obvious.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby mōdgethanc » 2015-02-23, 3:34

Yasna wrote:We are talking about great powers here. Japan, Korea, and Taiwan came under the influence of the US at a time when China was at rock bottom around the end of the century of humiliation. China of this era was not a great power, since it had few to none modern weapons and its economy was minuscule. It is hard to imagine that China would have tolerated the US intervening in its backyard if it had been a great power at that time.
Yeah, but they weren't, and Russia isn't exactly in great shape either at the moment.
As Stephen Walt has mentioned, one of the big questions of this century is How Long Will China Tolerate America’s Role in Asia?
I don't know, but I bet those countries won't ally with China any time soon. For one thing, it would need to change its political system.
Okay, Mr. Obvious.
Well, I feel like you're engaging in apologetics for Russia, as if the blame fell on the Western powers for provoking Russia and making it feel threatened. Yeah, right - Russia's always seen Ukraine as its backyard. Hell, the country's name means borderland.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Yasna » 2015-02-26, 5:20

mōdgethanc wrote:
Yasna wrote:We are talking about great powers here. Japan, Korea, and Taiwan came under the influence of the US at a time when China was at rock bottom around the end of the century of humiliation. China of this era was not a great power, since it had few to none modern weapons and its economy was minuscule. It is hard to imagine that China would have tolerated the US intervening in its backyard if it had been a great power at that time.
Yeah, but they weren't,

That's what I just said, and it's the reason your analogy is garbage. So why are you reiterating it as if it helps your argument? Bizarre.

, and Russia isn't exactly in great shape either at the moment.

Not in great shape, but still a great power that is capable and willing to shape events in its backyard.

I don't know, but I bet those countries won't ally with China any time soon. For one thing, it would need to change its political system.

There is a lot of middle ground between the current status quo and some scenario where all East Asian countries are allied with China.

Well, I feel like you're engaging in apologetics for Russia, as if the blame fell on the Western powers for provoking Russia and making it feel threatened.

And I feel that you are an uncritical cheerleader for the US and NATO, who seems to think that countries like Russia, China, and Iran have no legitimate reason in the world to push back against American hegemony.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby mōdgethanc » 2015-03-29, 15:04

Yasna wrote:Not in great shape, but still a great power that is capable and willing to shape events in its backyard.
It can, yeah. That's not a reason why it should.
And I feel that you are an uncritical cheerleader for the US and NATO, who seems to think that countries like Russia, China, and Iran have no legitimate reason in the world to push back against American hegemony.
'Fraid you're wrong, buddy. My issue with these countries is mainly with their shitty human rights records. I think America should police the world less and stick to defensive realism. My concern is that if it does, though, we'll have more of the aforementioned countries pulling crap like annexing their neighbours' territory. If they were democratic and played nice in the sandbox, I wouldn't care if the balance of power tilted towards them.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-04-25, 8:59

Hey how much reports have you been getting from Ukraine recently in the Western media?

Because there are really weird thing going on. Members of the former government are committing suicides:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/m ... yanukovych

Opposition journalists are getting killed:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/a ... les-buzyna

And here is a clip with the Minister of Internal Affairs and one of the killed journalists, simply to show their relationshiop:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i38wTmko8PY


And last but not least, the war crimes. We've seen reports of repeated shelling of civilian targets, but watch this! There is a leaked video where Ukrainians are torturing, crucifying and burning a rebel POW:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=091_1429897442

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Marah » 2015-04-25, 9:25

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Hey how much reports have you been getting from Ukraine recently in the Western media?



Lately? Nothing.

That's interesting, thanks for posting it.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Sol Invictus » 2015-04-25, 14:35

Ludwig Whitby wrote:And last but not least, the war crimes. We've seen reports of repeated shelling of civilian targets, but watch this! There is a leaked video where Ukrainians are torturing, crucifying and burning a rebel POW:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=091_1429897442

Yeah, because that's the best way to secretly torture execute prisoners - pick something hard, normally reserved for public executions and highly symbolic instead of, you know, just beating the bloody shit out of them and then shooting them

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby linguoboy » 2015-04-25, 16:37

Sol Invictus wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:And last but not least, the war crimes. We've seen reports of repeated shelling of civilian targets, but watch this! There is a leaked video where Ukrainians are torturing, crucifying and burning a rebel POW:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=091_1429897442

Yeah, because that's the best way to secretly torture execute prisoners - pick something hard, normally reserved for public executions and highly symbolic instead of, you know, just beating the bloody shit out of them and then shooting them

Moreover, we've been here before.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-04-25, 16:51

linguoboy wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:And last but not least, the war crimes. We've seen reports of repeated shelling of civilian targets, but watch this! There is a leaked video where Ukrainians are torturing, crucifying and burning a rebel POW:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=091_1429897442

Yeah, because that's the best way to secretly torture execute prisoners - pick something hard, normally reserved for public executions and highly symbolic instead of, you know, just beating the bloody shit out of them and then shooting them

Moreover, we've been here before.


So you're refuting a video of a POW being crucified and burned with a refutation of the claims that a child was being crucified in Slovyansk? I mean, I'm not sure the video is legit either, but these are two different events. The one I mentioned features a video where you can see the nail in the guy's hand and the flames engulfing his body. You can also hear his murderers proclaim: ''We are the Azov Battalion...''

What you are talking about is a woman describing the incident. The incident itself wasn't caught on tape.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf8Gt2Wnv74
Last edited by Ludwig Whitby on 2015-04-25, 16:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Varislintu » 2015-04-25, 16:52

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Hey how much reports have you been getting from Ukraine recently in the Western media?


YLE TV News mostly has short reports about the fightings, negotiations (if you can call them that), and feelings of the locals (for example in Mariopol recently).
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby linguoboy » 2015-04-25, 18:02

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:And last but not least, the war crimes. We've seen reports of repeated shelling of civilian targets, but watch this! There is a leaked video where Ukrainians are torturing, crucifying and burning a rebel POW:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=091_1429897442

Yeah, because that's the best way to secretly torture execute prisoners - pick something hard, normally reserved for public executions and highly symbolic instead of, you know, just beating the bloody shit out of them and then shooting them

Moreover, we've been here before.

So you're refuting a video of a POW being crucified and burned with a refutation of the claims that a child was being crucified in Slovyansk?

No, I'm saying I'm deeply skeptical of a video purported to be of a POW being tortured and killed in a war that is being fought as much if not more with propaganda than with mortars and bullets. The video could well depict a genuine murder without being the slaying of who it purports to be by the people purported to be at fault. How did it supposedly come into the possession of those who posted it to LiveLeak?
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Marah » 2015-04-25, 18:45

If it were an ISIS video, it would be everywhere on the news.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-04-25, 19:25

linguoboy wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:And last but not least, the war crimes. We've seen reports of repeated shelling of civilian targets, but watch this! There is a leaked video where Ukrainians are torturing, crucifying and burning a rebel POW:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=091_1429897442

Yeah, because that's the best way to secretly torture execute prisoners - pick something hard, normally reserved for public executions and highly symbolic instead of, you know, just beating the bloody shit out of them and then shooting them

Moreover, we've been here before.

So you're refuting a video of a POW being crucified and burned with a refutation of the claims that a child was being crucified in Slovyansk?

No, I'm saying I'm deeply skeptical of a video purported to be of a POW being tortured and killed in a war that is being fought as much if not more with propaganda than with mortars and bullets. The video could well depict a genuine murder without being the slaying of who it purports to be by the people purported to be at fault. How did it supposedly come into the possession of those who posted it to LiveLeak?

Hacker group called 'Cyber-Berkut'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CyberBerkut

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Sol Invictus » 2015-04-26, 15:16

Ludwig Whitby wrote:I'm not sure the video is legit either

Then why on earth are you spreading it further without even stating this, but making it sound like a fact? I'm sure in any war both sides commit crimes, but you have to take into account that it is very well known that there's a lot of propaganda going around about this particular conflict and also that there was a previous incident where similar claims were proven false - clearly this is an act that holds some sort of symbolism for the intended audience of that propaganda

Marah wrote:If it were an ISIS video, it would be everywhere on the news.


Yeah, and you know why? Because it would actually be published by the ISIS together with some fucked up reason for why they did it.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-04-26, 17:24

Alright so the Azov Battalion denies that they shot the movie, but the Nazis from Misanthropic Division Ukraine claim that that it's a fake video they made to 'troll' the Russian media:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDY6lzEVAAAAOwR.jpg:large
http://vk.com/video-79711074_171013556? ... 37618358ae

Although they've yet to provide any proof such as the 'behind the scenes' shots or something similar. They just said that they've shot the video.


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