Riots in Kiev

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Lada
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Lada » 2014-07-28, 16:57

linguoboy wrote:
Lada wrote:but I tried to do something good for Russia-Ukrainian relations.

What was that?

That was business.

Think about what you're saying. Are you really supporting the right of Poland to reoccupy the Borderlands? Of Germany to declare it's taking back Kaliningrad Oblast?

I would agree with that if local population was ethnic Poles or ethnic Germans respectively and voted (or showed in some other way) for joining to their historic matherland. The reality is that majority of Crimeans really support Russia and Putin. Not all of them, but in most cases they support. And they do speak Russian as native language, they are simply Russians (I was in Crimea several years ago). About 70% of soldiers joined Russian army, 30% left Crimea and continued serving for Ukraine. I can't check these figures, just what official propaganda says.
Lada wrote:Many civilians are refugees in Russia, Russia welcomes them, gives them shelter - official numbers of refugees are about 500 000 persons. That gives negative reaction?

If Russia hadn't armed the separatists and encouraged them to rebel, how many civilian refugees would there be?

I don't know and I don't know if Russia arms them. I can read about it but still I don't know the truth just like anyone of us.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-28, 17:03

Lada wrote:
Think about what you're saying. Are you really supporting the right of Poland to reoccupy the Borderlands? Of Germany to declare it's taking back Kaliningrad Oblast?

I would agree with that if local population was ethnic Poles or ethnic Germans respectively

So what you're saying is that the error the Ukrainians made was that they left the Russian-speakers in place after independence and didn't drive them out or deport them to gulags elsewhere in the country. Thanks for clarifying that.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby chung » 2014-07-28, 18:05

^ The example could be extended to Karelia. ^

The generalized lofty appeal to grassroots democracy is pointless (and perhaps even cynical on Lada's part) since most of the Finnish populace there was chased out/evacuated on account of the Red Army's invasion and the subsequent annexation of territory by the Kremlin.

After being duly repopulated with Russians like in Kaliningrad Oblast, why make a mockery of the idea by suggesting support for the (preceding) ethnic majority's potential desire for separation from the new masters?
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-28, 18:25

chung wrote:^ The example could be extended to Karelia. ^

Or pretty much any border region incorporated into the Russian Empire at some point.

I'm really curious to see what contortions this argument is going to go through once significant chunks of the Siberian borderlands with majority Han Chinese populations start agitating for annexation by China.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Lada » 2014-07-28, 18:34

linguoboy wrote:
Lada wrote:
Think about what you're saying. Are you really supporting the right of Poland to reoccupy the Borderlands? Of Germany to declare it's taking back Kaliningrad Oblast?

I would agree with that if local population was ethnic Poles or ethnic Germans respectively

So what you're saying is that the error the Ukrainians made was that they left the Russian-speakers in place after independence and didn't drive them out or deport them to gulags elsewhere in the country. Thanks for clarifying that.

I didn't say that, it's only your interpretation of my words. If you want to find "faults", try to find them deeper in the history, like Stalin's politics or politics of Russian Empire, things are much more complicated.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Lada » 2014-07-28, 18:39

linguoboy wrote:
chung wrote:^ The example could be extended to Karelia. ^

Or pretty much any border region incorporated into the Russian Empire at some point.

I'm really curious to see what contortions this argument is going to go through once significant chunks of the Siberian borderlands with majority Han Chinese populations start agitating for annexation by China.

Why only Russia? The whole world! :yep:

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-28, 19:30

Lada wrote:If you want to find "faults", try to find them deeper in the history, like Stalin's politics or politics of Russian Empire, things are much more complicated.

Exactly my point: Border changes are a complicated, messy affair with lots of political ramifications, which is why the international community prohibits unilateral changes. As I've clearly stated elsewhere, I'm not all opposed to the negotiated transfer of territory between sovereign powers with the approval of the inhabitants. Far from it--I wish more countries would do this. But that's not at all what we had in Crimea, and even less so in Donbass.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Lietmotiv » 2014-07-30, 6:54

linguoboy wrote:So what you're saying is that the error the Ukrainians made was that they left the Russian-speakers in place after independence and didn't drive them out or deport them to gulags elsewhere in the country. Thanks for clarifying that.

Russian-speakers and etnic Russians are 2 different things. A native Russian-speaker can be Kazakh, Ukrainian, Azerbaidjani, Uzbek and so on. Poroshenko, Timoshenko, Klichko and so on are native Russian-speakers. So, it's wrong to believe that all Russian-speakers in Ukraine are pro-Russian, those Russian-speakers(which, by the way, are more than 80%) in Kiev, for instance, don't want to separate from Ukraine.
People in Crimea and Donetsk somehow never felt linked to Ukraine, maybe this is also the government's fault.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby linguoboy » 2014-08-26, 14:57

Captured Russian troops 'in Ukraine by accident'

"A Russian defence ministry source was quoted by the Russian news agency RIA Novosti as saying: 'The soldiers really did participate in a patrol of a section of the Russian-Ukrainian border, crossed it by accident on an unmarked section...'"

...and were apprehended twenty kilometers deep into Ukrainian territory. Here's a suggestion, Mother Russia: If you're going to be sending troops to patrol "unmarked sections" of your border with a country you've been accused of invading, maybe think about outfitting them with GPS devices. Alternatively, if you're sending them across the border to carry out covert missions for you, perhaps come up with a more plausible cover story?
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-09-05, 10:15

10 principles of war propaganda:

1. We don't want war, we are only defending ourselves
2. The other guy is the sole responsible for this war
3. Our adversary's leader is evil and looks evil
4. We are defending a noble purpose, not special interest
5. The enemy is purposefully causing atrocities; we only commit mistakes
6. The enemy is using unlawful weapons
7. We have very little losses, the enemy is losing big
8. Intellectuals and artists support our cause
9. Our cause is sacred
10. Those who doubt our propaganda are traitors.

Everyone should be aware of them in the current situation. NATO countries are calling for more defense spending. Russia's defense spending has been growing even before the war in Ukraine and will surely continue this trend. Keep the principles of war propaganda in mind when your politicians decide to use the tax-payers money to buy more weapons.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-02-12, 22:25

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Another leaked conversation. Russian spies have been busy. This time it's the Estonian foreign minister saying that there are reasons to believe that it was the opposition and not Yanukovych who shot unarmed Maidan protestors with snipers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8

Woops! That awkward moment when even the BBC(!) says that the Maidan protesters have been shooting as well. Who shot the unarmed civilians? The current Ukrainian government will make sure that we never know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib7EkJD08e4

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Varislintu » 2015-02-13, 7:42

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
8. Intellectuals and artists support our cause


Just out of curiosity, is this card being played in Russia? I thought that since intellectuals and artists (mostly in Moscow) are the most Putin-critical, that Putin's current strategy is to paint them in a bad light (they support Western influence and like perverse things like homosexuality, etc). So do the intellectuals' opinion count for anything currently in the Russian media?
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Sol Invictus » 2015-02-13, 11:14

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:Another leaked conversation. Russian spies have been busy. This time it's the Estonian foreign minister saying that there are reasons to believe that it was the opposition and not Yanukovych who shot unarmed Maidan protestors with snipers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8

Woops! That awkward moment when even the BBC(!) says that the Maidan protesters have been shooting as well. Who shot the unarmed civilians? The current Ukrainian government will make sure that we never know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib7EkJD08e4

I don't remember this being marketed as entirely peaceful revolution, I mean just look at the first post of this thread. And what BBC really is saying that there is much uncertainty, but both sides where shooting at each other and probably accidentally hit some unarmed protesters, not that snipers from opposition side deliberately shot them.

Varislintu wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:
8. Intellectuals and artists support our cause


Just out of curiosity, is this card being played in Russia? I thought that since intellectuals and artists (mostly in Moscow) are the most Putin-critical, that Putin's current strategy is to paint them in a bad light (they support Western influence and like perverse things like homosexuality, etc). So do the intellectuals' opinion count for anything currently in the Russian media?


Are they? My understanding is that there are plenty of artists supporting Putin. There were some entertainment events they held in Latvia that got pulled out of petty revenge

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Varislintu » 2015-02-13, 11:27

Sol Invictus wrote:
Varislintu wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:
8. Intellectuals and artists support our cause


Just out of curiosity, is this card being played in Russia? I thought that since intellectuals and artists (mostly in Moscow) are the most Putin-critical, that Putin's current strategy is to paint them in a bad light (they support Western influence and like perverse things like homosexuality, etc). So do the intellectuals' opinion count for anything currently in the Russian media?


Are they? My understanding is that there are plenty of artists supporting Putin. There were some entertainment events they held in Latvia that got pulled out of petty revenge


Hmm, I guess you have a point. Even the most Putin-critical demographics seem to include at least 50% Putin-voters (when this kind of thing is mentioned somewhere). So they could just refer to the Putin-supporting artists/intellectuals, if they wanted to.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-02-13, 18:02

Sol Invictus wrote:I don't remember this being marketed as entirely peaceful revolution, I mean just look at the first post of this thread. And what BBC really is saying that there is much uncertainty, but both sides where shooting at each other and probably accidentally hit some unarmed protesters, not that snipers from opposition side deliberately shot them.

What BBC really is saying is that there is much uncertainty and that the courts are blocking any further investigation. In my mind, those who're preventing investigations are afraid of the results of the investigation. In this case, the current government in Kiev doesn't want to investigate.

EDIT: For the sake of our Western friends, I'll just point out that in third world countries such as Ukraine (and Serbia too, let's be honest) there is no separation of powers at all. The courts can't do anything independently, especially in such politically sensitive cases. The order not to allow investigations had to come from high above.
Last edited by Ludwig Whitby on 2015-02-13, 18:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-02-13, 18:10

Varislintu wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:
8. Intellectuals and artists support our cause


Just out of curiosity, is this card being played in Russia? I thought that since intellectuals and artists (mostly in Moscow) are the most Putin-critical, that Putin's current strategy is to paint them in a bad light (they support Western influence and like perverse things like homosexuality, etc). So do the intellectuals' opinion count for anything currently in the Russian media?

I don't know so I googled it. Apprarently there was a pro-Putin petition signed by a number of artists.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints ... 64523.html

But on the other hand there are surely a lot of artists and scientists who oppose this. Although it's probably the same as in other countries. You've got the mainstream supporting the policies of the government and then you have some, like our linguistic colleague Chomsky, who strongly oppose them.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Yasna » 2015-02-19, 16:52

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby chung » 2015-02-19, 18:07



The link to Reagan's realpolitik is rather strained since this time there's the stench of irredentism to go with annexation and maskirovka. However the premise that one's past transgression is no justification for another's subsequent transgression is indisputable (and aligns with my views already).

On a related note, one's past transgressions don't invalidate later criticism of another's transgression of a similar nature. Examples range from the banal one of a dying smoker speaking up against smoking to an international one when the rest of the world condemned South Africa's Apartheid, never mind that many such critical parties were continuations of groups/nations/kingdoms/empires that engaged in racism let alone vicious systematic policies such as the Slave Trade and/or the Pogroms / Holocaust.

In fact the article comes off to me as a variation of Whataboutism with a jab at the USA for getting its comeuppance.

Additional cold realism is that the Kremlin is still smarting from the fall of the USSR, and is now effectively forging ahead (or rather in reverse) to the heyday of Reagan, average Russian (and Ukrainian) be damned. If one is to tacitly acquiesce to the Kremlin's POV, then what to do with those of Kyiv, Chisinau, Warsaw, Tbilisi, Astana, Vilnius, Riga, Tallinn and Helsinki?
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Yasna » 2015-02-19, 19:31

I don't think you got the point of that article. It wasn't to take a jab at the U.S. It was to make the realist point that great powers are very likely to react violently to attempts by other great powers to gain influence in their backyards. Whether those reactions are moral or not is completely besides the point. Therefore the US and the EU should not have been surprised that their long-running efforts to pull Ukraine out of Russia's sphere of influence were eventually met with violence.

Now you will probably say that Ukraine and other countries in Eastern Europe are sovereign countries who can align with whoever they want, especially if their great power neighbor treats them poorly. But that's just not realistic given the nature of great powers, past and present. So however noble the US and EU's intentions were, and however much the Ukrainian people deserve better, the EU and US still helped steer towards this disaster.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2015-02-20, 20:32

chung wrote:
On a related note, one's past transgressions don't invalidate later criticism of another's transgression of a similar nature. Examples range from the banal one of a dying smoker speaking up against smoking to an international one when the rest of the world condemned South Africa's Apartheid, never mind that many such critical parties were continuations of groups/nations/kingdoms/empires that engaged in racism let alone vicious systematic policies such as the Slave Trade and/or the Pogroms / Holocaust.

In fact the article comes off to me as a variation of Whataboutism with a jab at the USA for getting its comeuppance.

Is that how you see it? A dying smoker? This is how I see it:

Act I

Two thieves, Bob and Andrei, sitting in Bob's villa (which he bought with stolen money).

Bob: Listen Andrei, stealing is bad. You should really stop doing that.
Andrei: What? But almost everything you own is stolen how can you say that!?
Bob: Oh please, that makes absolutely no difference. The point still stands, regardless of my deeds and misdeeds.
Andrei: Alright, but why are you stealing my pocket-watch then?
Bob: Stealing? Oh, I see you're still stuck in the old mind-set. Oh no no no. I'm done with stealing.
Andrei: But why is my pocket-watch in your pocket then?
Bob: I'm simply going to return it to its rightful owner. Alongside the car you've driven yourself here in and your boots.
Andrei: I'm not giving you my boots.
Bob: But you've stolen them, they're not yours.
Andrei: I don't care. You can steal my belongings, but I'm not going bare-foot.
Bob: I'm not stealing! I'm simply returning those things to their owner.
Andrei: To whom?
Bob: To that guy, you know, the guy... what's his name...
Andrei: I'll tell you. He's called Taras, and he's the homeless person I buy lunch for every day.
Bob: Well, as soon as he gets back on track, I'll return his stuff.
Andrei: Why not right away?
Bob: What? That way he'd sell them to buy vodka and crack. No way.

Act II

Taras' cardboard-house, Bob walks by

Taras: HEY! BOB! HEY! There's my saviour!
Bob: Oh hey...
Taras: Oh thank you so much for returning my belongings!
Bob: Oh well, I'm safe-keeping them for now, until you get back on track.
Taras: But I can't get back on track without any money? I could sell the car, pocket-watch and everything else that bastard stole from me, rent a place and then get a job at Hans and Pierre's offices.
Bob: Sorry, Taras. A tough decision needs to be taken, and I've taken it.
Taras: What are you talking about? Why are you deciding over my stuff?
Bob: Because I know you'd simply use the money to buy crack. Look at yourself! Gotta go man, take care!
Taras: Wait! At least give me some food!
Bob: Sure, here's a hot dog. Enjoy!

Bob leaves, Andrei comes along.

Andrei: Oh well, well, well... if it isn't the ungrateful bitch. You've teamed up with that bastard Bob against me.
Taras: I haven't. He won't give me anything...
Andrei: Oh and that hot dog is a gift from God is it?
Taras: I'm starving... I'd take food from anyone.
Andrei: You ain't getting nothing from me. Never again. I was too good to you.
Taras: Too good? You made me homeless! You almost starved me to death! The least you could do was give me some food. And then Bob came along and said that he'd help me get my stuff back!
Andrei: And you believed him! He's a conman! It's his job to lie!
Taras: After what you did to me, I'd try anything.
Andrei: Shut up you motherfucker! I've had it with you! (slaps the hot dog from Taras' hand)

Andrei leaves after hearing Hans yelling. Hans runs over to Taras.

Hans: Are you ok? Did he hurt you?
Taras: No, I'm good. But I do need a job, you know. I'd really work hard.
Hans: You? A job? Hey Pierre, José, Luca, John! He think he can work for us!!
Taras: Why? What's the problem?
Hans: You stink. For starters.
Taras: Can I shower at your place and stay with you until the first salary?
Hans: HAHAHA Of course not! Go stay at Andrei's place. You're cousins after all. I don't want to get in the middle of a family feud. Or you could stay at Bob's place. But you know, he'll probably want to shave you as well.
Taras: I do need a shave, though.
Hans: No, I wanted to say... how do you call it, oh yes, bikini waxing! He likes his boys smooth and submissive. He even has a dungeon. Did you see it?
Taras: Oh God...


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