Riots in Kiev

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby linguoboy » 2014-06-23, 15:32

Lietmotiv wrote:Whenever I hear people wanting to change the borders, take some regions, "unify" with other countries, I want to ask them a questions : What's the difference between you guys and Hitler, for instance? Any change should be done according to the people's will, which is not the case of Western Ukraine, not even Eastern Ukraine.

Damn, that is some sloppy argumentation. "Hitler wanted to change national borders, therefore anyone who wants to change national borders is Hitler." Hitler was also a vegetarian, did badly in school, could whistle Wagner, and dabbled in watercolours. So I guess anyone who does any of those things is Hitler, too.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Saim » 2014-06-23, 18:05

This doesn't have to do with Ukraine specifically but it's germane to the whole NATO-Russia conflict.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/19/russia-secretly-working-with-environmentalists-to-oppose-fracking

Anders Fogh Rasmussen, secretary-general of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (Nato), and former premier of Denmark, told the Chatham House thinktank in London on Thursday that Vladimir Putin’s government was behind attempts to discredit fracking, according to reports.

Rasmussen said: “I have met allies who can report that Russia, as part of their sophisticated information and disinformation operations, engaged actively with so-called non-governmental organisations - environmental organisations working against shale gas - to maintain European dependence on imported Russian gas.”


:roll:

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby TheStrayCat » 2014-06-23, 19:59

Saim wrote:The most important thing for me is that these borders are subject to change according to the will of the local inhabitants. I can make my own suggestions (I think Ukraine should recognise the Rusyns as a nationality, and I wouldn't mind to see autonomous republics of the Russian Federation declare independence), but I don't get a vote and I wouldn't support any violent actions to achieve those political goals. Am I like Hitler?


You have answered your own question. As long as the political changes or actions are supported by those whom they concern, like Rusyns, most of whom are in favor of official recognition of their nation, or ethnic minorities in Russia, whose national feelings haven't yet been suppressed completely, expressing a personal opinion on this is normal and civil. On the other hand, speculating how nice it would be to merge Western Ukraine to Poland or restore the USSR in its original borders, which definitely will be against the will of local people (in the latter case, at least in Baltic States and, since recently, Ukraine) makes sense only for discussing hypothetical events and their possible consequences.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Lietmotiv » 2014-06-24, 8:27

linguoboy wrote:Damn, that is some sloppy argumentation. "Hitler wanted to change national borders, therefore anyone who wants to change national borders is Hitler." Hitler was also a vegetarian, did badly in school, could whistle Wagner, and dabbled in watercolours. So I guess anyone who does any of those things is Hitler, too.



There are international conventions, there is the UN, why should we change borders because some frustrated imperialists in Poland, Romania or Russia want so? You should read their arguments "Moldavia has no right to exist, Western Ukraine is Poland, Eastern Ukraine is Russia" and so on. This makes these people who want to change borders based on some (false) ethnic suppositions be alike rather fascist , no offence.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Saim » 2014-06-24, 9:00

I don't think anyone here is saying that frustrated imperialists never propose border changes. What I'm trying to suggest is that you analyse every suggestion on its own merits rather than fitting them all into the same "Nazi" category. When a right-wing Pole or Russian says "Ukraine should be divided in half because it's never existed" or a Serb says "Serbia includes all of Slavonia, Bosnia, Hercegovina, Macedonia and Dalmatia" implying some sort of military takeover or ethnic cleansing is not the same as when some progressive Moldovan says they might be better off as part of Romania or a Gagauz who wants to form a new microstate and want to achieve that through a plebiscite.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby linguoboy » 2014-06-24, 15:13

Lietmotiv wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Damn, that is some sloppy argumentation. "Hitler wanted to change national borders, therefore anyone who wants to change national borders is Hitler." Hitler was also a vegetarian, did badly in school, could whistle Wagner, and dabbled in watercolours. So I guess anyone who does any of those things is Hitler, too.

There are international conventions, there is the UN, why should we change borders because some frustrated imperialists in Poland, Romania or Russia want so?

We shouldn't. But if a majority of the population in these areas wants the border to change, why should we ignore them?

Your problem is assuming that all proposals to change national borders come from "frustrated imperialists" or "fascists". (Psst! Communists and liberals have changed borders, too!) But they don't. That's what makes your argument an invalid one. As Saim says, each proposal should be evaluated on its own merits.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Lietmotiv » 2014-06-24, 16:35

linguoboy wrote:We shouldn't. But if a majority of the population in these areas wants the border to change, why should we ignore them?

I can assure you, that the majority of the population in these areas is against. At least in Md (according to various surveys, there are no more than 6% who want some stupid "unification"), whereas almost 50% are for the Eurasian Union, but for some reasons everybody avoids this topic, promoting only the unification with our neighbor from the West.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby linguoboy » 2014-06-24, 16:38

Lietmotiv wrote:I can assure you, that the majority of the population in these areas is against. At least in Md (according to various surveys, there are no more than 6% who want some stupid "unification")

How can you be so sure what the majority of the population in these areas does or doesn't want?

Attitudes in Moldova are irrelevant; the areas under question are currently part of Ukraine.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Saim » 2014-06-24, 17:08

Lietmotiv wrote:whereas almost 50% are for the Eurasian Union, but for some reasons everybody avoids this topic, promoting only the unification with our neighbor from the West.


You want a border change??? Nazi!!!!

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Lietmotiv » 2014-06-24, 20:42

Saim wrote:
Lietmotiv wrote:whereas almost 50% are for the Eurasian Union, but for some reasons everybody avoids this topic, promoting only the unification with our neighbor from the West.


You want a border change??? Nazi!!!!



Lol, I am just saying that there is some kind of lobby for some border changes, regardless of the people's will, and ideas that people support are not taken into account. And Eurasian Union, just like the EU, does not involve border changes.

the areas under question are currently part of Ukraine.

The discussion itself started because someone stated that Western Ukraine should go with Poland. As far as I know, such an idea isn't very popular in Western Ukraine.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby linguoboy » 2014-06-24, 20:59

Lietmotiv wrote:The discussion itself started because someone stated that Western Ukraine should go with Poland.

Um, actually no. Here's the statement in question, with the part you apparently missed bolded for clarity:
Yasna wrote:What do you guys think should be done with the western part of Ukraine that Stalin chopped off of Poland and gave to Ukraine?

First of all, this isn't a statement, it's a question. Second, the territory in question is a tiny fraction of the total territory of Western Ukraine.

Here are the responses:
TheStrayCat wrote:I'd appreciate more investments from the new government into the western regions as touristic places. The richest cultural heritage left by a multitude of nations inhabiting those areas in different times makes them potentially attractive for both Ukrainians and foreign visitors.

Johanna wrote:That's for Poland and Ukraine to decide[/.]

xivrox wrote:If you mean the ownership of it, then the answer is obviously: nothing. There are simply not enough Polish people living there to change anything, even if the Polish government was strong and independent enough and had enough political will.

Saim wrote:The same thing that should be done with Lower Silesia or eastern Prussia, i.e. nothing (based on the will of the local inhabitants, of course).


So it appears that the "someone [who] stated that Western Ukraine should go with Poland" is an invention of your mind. None of the respondents advocated a change in boundaries; at most, they invoked the wishes of the local inhabitants and/or the two countries with a claim to the territory.

Discussions work better when you (a) read and respond to what's actually been said rather than what you imagine was said and (b) leave out incendiary rhetoric, such as comparisons to Hitler.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-07-06, 9:17

Slavoj Žižek wrote:We all know the well-known joke from the last decade of the Soviet Union about Rabinovitch, a Jew who wants to emigrate. The bureaucrat at the emigration office asks him why, and Rabinovitch answers: “There are two reasons why. The first is that I’m afraid that in the Soviet Union the Communists will lose power, and the new power will put all the blame for the Communist crimes on us, Jews – there will again be anti-Jewish pogroms…” “But”, interrupts him the bureaucrat, “this is pure nonsense, nothing can change in the Soviet Union, the power of the Communists will last forever!” “Well”, responds Rabinovitch calmly, “that’s my second reason.”

We can easily imagine a similar exchange between a critical Ukrainian and a European Union financial administrator – the Ukrainian complains: “There are two reasons we are in a panic here in Ukraine. First, we are afraid that the EU will simply abandon us to the Russian pressure and let our economy collapse…” The EU administrator interrupts him: “But you can trust us, we will not abandon you, we will tightly control you and advise you what to do!” “Well”, responds the Ukrainian calmly, “that’s my second reason.”

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Varislintu » 2014-07-21, 14:18

The Russian Public Has a Totally Different Understanding of What Happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 And it's more of a problem than you think.

“It’s noticeable that the Kremlin is much more tempered than Russian TV but can’t change it,” Pavlovsky says. “It’s fallen into a trap, so it's now trying to function within the strictures of this picture.” He cites the example of the PR contortions the Kremlin had to use just to announce that it would not send troops into eastern Ukraine. “In this seemingly controlled media, any rational political arguments of the state have to be hidden and packaged in idiotic, jingoistic rhetoric,” Pavlovsky says.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby chung » 2014-07-21, 15:16

Varislintu wrote:The Russian Public Has a Totally Different Understanding of What Happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 And it's more of a problem than you think.

“It’s noticeable that the Kremlin is much more tempered than Russian TV but can’t change it,” Pavlovsky says. “It’s fallen into a trap, so it's now trying to function within the strictures of this picture.” He cites the example of the PR contortions the Kremlin had to use just to announce that it would not send troops into eastern Ukraine. “In this seemingly controlled media, any rational political arguments of the state have to be hidden and packaged in idiotic, jingoistic rhetoric,” Pavlovsky says.


Indeed, and this is why it's so frustrating to try to have a good debate with ordinary Russians about geopolitical, ideological or historical matters. The obvious restrictions to sources of information or views other than state-approved pap (where the central government has a blatantly vested interest in presenting such matters in its favor) is behind this. It also doesn't help matters that the average Russian is practically monolingual and so can't really look into that many sources of information/news from other countries since they're often not in Russian).
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-21, 15:55

I have to admit that when news of the crash initial circulated alongside accusations that Russia was responsible, my first reaction was, "Those bastards!" Then it occurred to me that, given the fog of war, it was hard to be certain what had happened, but that any explanation which put the blame on Russia would be a boon to American foreign policy. So I held back from making a judgment until I'd read several sources and had a chance to evaluate the evidence pro and con.

I've come to think that the most likely explanation is that poorly-trained separatists used matériel acquired from the Russian government to shoot down the jet thinking it was a military plane, but I accept we may never know for sure. (Especially now that those selfsame separatists are interfering with access to the evidence for international inspectors.)
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2014-07-21, 16:53

At least it seems that the bodies are going to the Netherlands now. The thought that they were still lying there or even stolen made me cry.
We'll probably never know who was responsible but the separatists surely are frustrating everything which is a totally immoral thing to do.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby linguoboy » 2014-07-21, 17:05

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:We'll probably never know who was responsible but the separatists surely are frustrating everything which is a totally immoral thing to do.

They're clearly not the least bit concerned about world public opinion--which makes sense, seeing as the only country where this matters to them is Russia and Russia is already on their side. Still, it appeared rather needlessly antagonistic until it was pointed out to me that they would really like a ceasefire so they could regroup and prepare for battle, just as they did the last couple of times there was a break in the fighting, and Ukraine really doesn't want to agree to this because...well, what I just said. Seizing the remains shows just how desperate they are, which lends credence to reports that Ukraine is on the verge of taking back Donetsk. But they appear to have caved now, which suggests that Putin hasn't lost control of them entirely. That's welcome news.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Varislintu » 2014-07-21, 20:07

I also held back opinion. I felt initially most outraged at finding out planes were still flying over that area! So irresponsible -- mortally negligent as it turned out.

Personally my suspicion is, based on what I've read about the separatists (I'm not taking anything as full truth), that it was a stupid drunk accident committed by some half-skilled recruited non-Ukranian separatist, using Russian missiles.

The bigger lesson is, once again, that human kind just can't handle the chaos of war, and innocent people always end up paying.

Still, the ensuing media games are interesting and frustrating to follow, as usual.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby chung » 2014-07-21, 21:39

Varislintu wrote:I also held back opinion. I felt initially most outraged at finding out planes were still flying over that area! So irresponsible -- mortally negligent as it turned out.

Personally my suspicion is, based on what I've read about the separatists (I'm not taking anything as full truth), that it was a stupid drunk accident committed by some half-skilled recruited non-Ukranian separatist, using Russian missiles.

The bigger lesson is, once again, that human kind just can't handle the chaos of war, and innocent people always end up paying.

Still, the ensuing media games are interesting and frustrating to follow, as usual.


I've been a little uneasy about making that much of the fact that the plane was over a war zone. When you consider that other planes had flown over this war zone up to that very day (but not necessarily taken an identical flight path at the MH17), one can only question (if not excoriate and loathe) why some pack of barbarians on the ground launched SAMs this time given that other aircraft have flown overhead (Ukrainian military aircraft as well as non-Ukrainian airliners) without incident.

Another problem that I have by making much of the details of the flight path (or even nitpicking about the plane's altitude (!); instead of flying at 33,000 (or was it 35,000 ft.?) MH17 was flying at 32,000 ft. meaningless trivia for a SAM with a maximum ceiling of 70,000 ft.), it unduly puts the heat on the airline company instead and maybe even in a very nasty way those passengers who got on board. In other words, it then smells too much like a trick from Strelkov et. al. and their sympathizers to blame the victim. If one deflects that much responsibility from trigger-happy thugs firing SAMs, then I guess that the crew of the USS Vincennes and the US government should have got off scot-free and been forgiven after blasting that Iranian airliner out of the sky over the Strait of Hormuz which also was part of a war zone.

Even in an acknowledged war, wasting civilians can be treated as a war crime even if its enforcement in practice is generally dictated by the victors of that war.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Lada » 2014-07-22, 12:48

I wonder why there are no any meetings against the war? It's like as world community doesn't care that civilians are dying every day. Only Ukrainian mothers whose sons are in the army cry for peace, nobody else. I remember something like "stop war in Iraq" and something about Middle East, but not about this war.

And I read an article in Italian newspaper (can't find the link now) about Italian man, who joined Ukrainian army and many other neo-nazis from Sweden, Finland, Latvia and maybe some other countries joined it too.
http://yle.fi/uutiset/russia_demands_investigation_into_claims_finns_joined_fighting_in_ukraine/7368805

and one more weird thing:
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualites/2014/07/21/01001-20140721QCMWWW00108-pensez-vous-que-les-russes-soient-responsables-du-crash-du-vol-mh-17-de-la-malaysia-airlines.php
A very big newspaper asks its readers if Russia is responsible for airplane crash? Readers really know the truth?

I tried to find something not anti-Russian and found it:
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/july/20/what-the-media-won%E2%80%99t-report-about-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.aspx


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