Riots in Kiev

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Matt/terrapod
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Riots in Kiev

Postby Matt/terrapod » 2014-01-20, 0:57

Image
Image
Image

Rioters beating up officers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pkzi6-zz55M

Live Stream
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrZcAsPKK74

From what I understand;
Ukrainians are upset due to President's siding with Putin and not joining EU
Recent laws illegalized peaceful protests
Rioters came out during the night and crowd controls have came in,
Molotov Cocktails, Tear Gas, and rubber bullets have been flying throughout city
This has gotten violent pretty fast


What do you guys think?

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Set
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Set » 2014-01-20, 8:22

Are those not neo-Nazis in the first picture (and second?). The 14 and 88 would suggest that. I don't really know much about this story, but why would neo-Nazis want to join the EU?
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby TheStrayCat » 2014-01-20, 9:56

Matt/terrapod wrote:From what I understand;
Ukrainians are upset due to President's siding with Putin and not joining EU


Rather, due to their refusal to keep to their own promises. Formerly the Government announced a pro-European attitude and a desire to join the Association with EU, but afterwards suddenly abandoned this course, which led to first peaceful protests. After one of them was brutally and illegally suppressed resulting in dozens of injured and three still missing, the protests in the center became permanent.

Matt/terrapod wrote:Recent laws illegalized peaceful protests

If you call them "laws". They were adopted in the Parliament by simple hand raising, with the ruling party leader announcing every time there was a majority of votes, despite the photos showing that there were at most 100-120 deputies voting out of 450. You see, we don't want to live in a police-controlled country where no laws act.

Matt/terrapod wrote:Rioters came out during the night and crowd controls have came in,
Molotov Cocktails, Tear Gas, and rubber bullets have been flying throughout city
This has gotten violent pretty fast

What do you guys think?


Just throughout a couple of central districts. I live in Obolon, which is a northern neighborhood, and the only thing here which reminds of the revolution is people wearing national ribbons.

Set wrote:Are those not neo-Nazis in the first picture (and second?). The 14 and 88 would suggest that. I don't really know much about this story, but why would neo-Nazis want to join the EU?


They're members of a far-right political organization. Their radical ideas aren't popular even in mostly nationalistic West, but this time they happened to be the only ones who had the guts to start a violent protest, which was quickly joined by crowds of enraged people. Most of the protesters couldn't care less about Nazism, but they're fed up with the lawless government and fruitless two-month-long peaceful protests.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Matt/terrapod » 2014-01-20, 19:16

Thanks TheStrayCat for clearing that up for me

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Garethw87 » 2014-01-20, 21:51

The EU and Europe should just be friends and join some kind of cooperation. It makes no sense to still be stuck in 1872 or whatever year it is in these politicians heads.

If people live in a democratic world and they want to join the EU then that should happen.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Garethw87 » 2014-01-20, 21:52

Set wrote:Are those not neo-Nazis in the first picture (and second?). The 14 and 88 would suggest that. I don't really know much about this story, but why would neo-Nazis want to join the EU?


There are lots of Nazi symbolism in the Eastern part of Europe. Which is a shame and stupid. Idolising or showing any kind of support for an organisation that thought of your people less then animals. Not the smartest move.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Lietmotiv » 2014-01-21, 7:26

As far as I know (I have friends who live in Kiev) many people who took part in these actions have nothing to do with Neo-Nazi ideology, they just want their country to be independent and have the opportunity to join the EU, so it's unfair to consider that they're neo-Nazis.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby voron » 2014-01-21, 7:40

AndreiB wrote:As far as I know (I have friends who live in Kiev) many people who took part in these actions have nothing to do with Neo-Nazi ideology, they just want their country to be independent and have the opportunity to join the EU, so it's unfair to consider that they're neo-Nazis.

Of course most people who take part in the protests have nothing to do with Nazism, but the people on the first photo with the 14/88 shield unambiguously declare that they are Neo-Nazis though. I just hope that they are confused teenagers for whom Nazism is akin to a computer game.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-01-21, 8:32

Garethw87 wrote:
Set wrote:Are those not neo-Nazis in the first picture (and second?). The 14 and 88 would suggest that. I don't really know much about this story, but why would neo-Nazis want to join the EU?


There are lots of Nazi symbolism in the Eastern part of Europe. Which is a shame and stupid. Idolising or showing any kind of support for an organisation that thought of your people less then animals. Not the smartest move.

That might have more to do with some Russians call anyone that is not pro-Russia a nazi, racism and many other things than with actual nazi ideology

Garethw87 wrote:The EU and Europe should just be friends and join some kind of cooperation.
That was the idea, I think. Except Ukrainian government no longer wants to be friends

If people live in a democratic world and they want to join the EU then that should happen.
That would upset the balance (Ukraine is huge). Then again so would this.

Is there any good Ukrainian news site to get fresh information on this BTW?

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Lietmotiv » 2014-01-21, 8:48

Sol Invictus wrote:
Is there any good Ukrainian news site to get fresh information on this BTW?


I personally read this one http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/ .

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Levo » 2014-01-28, 14:55

In Hungary we would like if Ukraine remained free of Russian political spheres. It's a big country in our neighbourhood.
And since there is a significant number of Hungarian minority close to the border in Ukraine's Zakkarpatia, we would like them to have the best conditions provided. Party of Regions' policies and Russian interests don't meet with those.

On the other hand we feel sorry for Ukrainians, as either they choose the way to EU or fall completely into the Russian sphere of incluence, it will be hard for them either way :/

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby TheStrayCat » 2014-01-28, 15:43

Levo, will you be surprised to hear that Hungarians in Western Ukraine give almost unanimous support to the Party of Regions and candidates loyal to it? :)

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Levo » 2014-01-28, 20:50

TheStrayCat wrote:Levo, will you be surprised to hear that Hungarians in Western Ukraine give almost unanimous support to the Party of Regions and candidates loyal to it? :)


I know that in Zakkarpatia the Party of Regions rules. I also know that there are several reasons for ethnic Hungarians why the Party of Regions could be favourable to some nationalist parties there, in case they have to use from between the two. Even though I don't think they support the Party of Regions. All Hungarians I've spoken to from there disliked their politics and told me honestly, that unfortunately the other side (meaning the existing greater parties) isn't any better for them in certain aspects.
At the same time the longer-term policies of the present ruling party doesn't meet with a lot of values we share in Hungary, and Hungarians in Zakkarpatia, and we think that on a longer term it is not good for our co-nationals there either to have them in power. In case there was real democracy in Ukraine they could choose from a more proper variety of parties and policies.
That's why I said, the present governing isn't the best for them. With that I haven't stated that I or we would so hope for the victory of Udar or whatever...
I also said, we think it would be a hard way for all of Ukraine even in case they had a government deciding to join EU, that's why we feel sorry for them either greater power would win there.

I had a Hungarian class-mate at university from Beregszász (Berezhove or what) and he told us that the new regime (we are talking about ~2007, the post Orange-revolution Juschenko's and Tymoshenko's governing including their supporters) aren't any less unfriendly towards ethnic Hungarians. Though they (my-classmate) also went out to the squares with orange flags in those times.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Lietmotiv » 2014-01-28, 21:00

TheStrayCat wrote:Levo, will you be surprised to hear that Hungarians in Western Ukraine give almost unanimous support to the Party of Regions and candidates loyal to it? :)

It's the same situation with Moldavians living in Chernovtsy and Odesskaya Oblast'. Most of them vote for the Party of Regions. So I guess it's a trend since not only the Hungarian minority but also the Moldavian, Polish or Romanian minorities support the Party of Regions.
Anyway, I believe that every Ukrainian citizen, regardless of his etnicity should be, first of all, a good Ukrainian and a patriot of his country.
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Levo » 2014-01-28, 21:07

AndreiB wrote:
TheStrayCat wrote:Levo, will you be surprised to hear that Hungarians in Western Ukraine give almost unanimous support to the Party of Regions and candidates loyal to it? :)

It's the same situation with Moldovans living in Chernovtsy and Odessa Oblast'. Most of them vote for the Party of Regions.


I don't think Hungarians "vote" for them. So it's a difference.
Note that ethnic Hungarians are in minority within the Zakkarpatia as well.

As I wrote above, all Hungarians I know supported the Orange-revolution back then, and all of them had a bad opinion about Yanukovich and the politics of their regime.
At the same time they told us, the other side isn't that very democratic either, including the thinking of their supporters. At least with Central-European standards.
I think it is rather the lack of choice for them that makes some people among their circles stay neutral to some extent.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Lietmotiv » 2014-01-28, 21:22

Levo wrote:
I don't think Hungarians "vote" for them. So it's a difference.
Note that ethnic Hungarians are in minority within the Zakkarpatia as well.
t.


Actually the Party of Regions has big support among minorities, since they adopted this law concerning minorities languages.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby isenkrammer » 2014-02-03, 14:23

I've always wondered if Russia would have been better off if it had remained under the Oligarchs like Berezovsky and etc. At least back then the only predators were the criminal gangs, whereas now the government is mafia. But then I guess if Berezovsky et al didn't learn their lesson with Putin they would have led Russia to exactly where Ukraine is today.

Lucky the Georgians had their Ivanishvilli. Best wishes to the protesters.

Edit: I also wonder if Ukrainian nationalism would have ever grown this powerful if Putin never became the president of Russia, since to me Ukrainian nationalism seems to be mostly responses to Russia's attempt at meddling with its politics.

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Zireael » 2014-02-19, 19:20

I just heard that Lviv declared itself independent from Yanukovich's rule. I worry that might be a step towards a civil war...
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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-02-19, 19:44

It already is a civil war, unless they manage to oppress the protests, and judging by the noise certain propaganda machine is making a rather miserable land grab is in order too :n:

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Re: Riots in Kiev

Postby TheStrayCat » 2014-02-19, 20:20

Zireael wrote:I just heard that Lviv declared itself independent from Yanukovich's rule. I worry that might be a step towards a civil war...


At most a war between the occupational government and its own people. There is no way to form an effective army of remaining ordinary Yanukovych's supporters, because most of them are just brainwashed people who have no idea about what is going on. All those anti-Maidans were mere gatherings of bribed people, mostly from the East. Listening to interviews with them was funny. When asked what they were doing there, they didn't even know what to answer. "The television says someone's going to split the country, we are against it!!!" and so on.


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