Belgium Language Problems

[Tand324]

Hallo,

I don't speak dutch so I will write this in english. My mom was born in Brussels to English parents but grew up speaking French. Over the past few weeks, I have looked into the language divide in Belgium and I was wondering what all of you think about the problem and what some of the solutions are?

Dank u/Thank you,

Tristan

[JackFrost]

Hi. The two topics you've created (one in the French forum and one in the Dutch forum) would be better in the Politics & Religion forum. Plus, it's not allowed to have two topics of same subject here, even if they're not in the same forum.

Carry on and welcome to the site.

[Ciarán12]

I supposed the most "straight-forward" solution is for Flanders and Wallonia to separate, and then they could vote on whether they wanted to join the Netherlands and France respectively (depending, of course, on whether or not the Dutch and the French wanted them) or whether they wanted to stay independent. But it's not that simple, because Brussels is predominantly French-speaking now, and it is surrounded by Dutch speaking areas. The Flemish would not want to give it up, and neither would the Walloons.

[linguoboy]

But it's not that simple, because Brussels is predominantly French-speaking now, and it is surrounded by Dutch speaking areas. The Flemish would not want to give it up, and neither would the Walloons.

Make it a European federal territory, comparable to the District of Columbia in the US, so it belongs to everyone and to no one.

[Ciarán12]

But it's not that simple, because Brussels is predominantly French-speaking now, and it is surrounded by Dutch speaking areas. The Flemish would not want to give it up, and neither would the Walloons.

Make it a European federal territory, comparable to the District of Columbia in the US, so it belongs to everyone and to no one.

Not sure what the Belgians living there (both French and Flemish speaking) would think of that.

[Ludwig Whitby]

But it's not that simple, because Brussels is predominantly French-speaking now, and it is surrounded by Dutch speaking areas. The Flemish would not want to give it up, and neither would the Walloons.

Make it a European federal territory, comparable to the District of Columbia in the US, so it belongs to everyone and to no one.

I doubt Belgians would be up for that. It sounds like solving problems by creating new ones.

[Marah]

Or they could stay Belgium.

[Ciarán12]

Or they could stay Belgium.

I think there is significant support for change. They could stay Belgium, but how would that solve the language problems? I suppose everyone could be made to learn both languages and everything kept bilingual at official level, but the Flemish might not want to learn French and the Walloons might not want to learn Flemish.

[Marah]

They could stay Belgium, but how would that solve the language problems? I suppose everyone could be made to learn both languages and everything kept bilingual at official level, but the Flemish might not want to learn French and the Walloons might not want to learn Flemish.

What language problems are we talking about? Are they real problems? Anyway, even if they were to obtain independence they would probably learn the language of their neighbors so I don't think it would make a big difference.
Those who want independence are far from being a majority (15% or something like that in Flanders, also 85% of them feel Belgian not even Flemish so there's that, too) so I don't even know why we're discussing it. It seems very unlikely.
Here's a good article about it in French http://politiquebelgeetautre.wordpress. ... -belgique/

[Ciarán12]

They could stay Belgium, but how would that solve the language problems? I suppose everyone could be made to learn both languages and everything kept bilingual at official level, but the Flemish might not want to learn French and the Walloons might not want to learn Flemish.

What language problems are we talking about?

These ones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOQLTjMq7zw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY7_k284cMI

Anyway, even if they were to obtain independence they would probably learn the language of their neighbors so I don't think it would make a big difference.

Well they haven't done a very good job of it so far, and they live in the same country. At least if they were separate countries there would be a clear border for their respective juristictions.

Those who want independence are far from being a majority (15% or something like that in Flanders, also 85% of them feel Belgian not even Flemish so there's that, too) so I don't even know why we're discussing it. It seems very unlikely.

We're not discussing its likelihood, just whether or not it would solve the problem.

[md0]

What language problems are we talking about? Are they real problems?

Wanted to ask that too. What Belgium has doesn't seem to be a language problem, but a political problem. The way their constitution evolved during the 70s made forming a government very difficult. And they have some 4 almost-equal governments or something.

Yeah, few teenagers sprayed out the French names on road signs. It's not because French offends them, but because they have problems with the Walloons. Same way Croats erase signs in Serbian. It's not that Cyrillic offends them, it's the Serb minority that they don't like.

Belgium's model, if it was planned instead of "naturally evolved", could actually work for Cyprus. Two federal states and a neutral capital.

[Car]

I think there is significant support for change. They could stay Belgium, but how would that solve the language problems? I suppose everyone could be made to learn both languages and everything kept bilingual at official level, but the Flemish might not want to learn French and the Walloons might not want to learn Flemish.

I thought the Flemish learn French already, but the Walloons don't learn Flemish?

[Ciarán12]

I thought the Flemish learn French already, but the Walloons don't learn Flemish?

I know that that's the trend, but I'm not sure if that's down to the schools' policies or just the culture there. It's not gone un noticed by the Flems though, who are quite annoyed about it.

[Hoogstwaarschijnlijk]

I've recently been to Brussels for the first time in my life.

I was amazed. Everyone speaks French, I didn't hear much Flemish at all, in fact, I think I heard more Netherlandic Dutch than Flemish Dutch. And everyone spoke French to us, or English. Never Dutch.

At the same time, everything was both in French and Dutch, all signs and menu's and stuff like that. It was so awkward, apparently the whole of Brussels is full of people who are surrounded with a language they don't even know/ want to speak?



I can't really add anything to the language discussion because whoah, it's complicated and I haven't got much time now. But I agree that the languages on itself aren't the real problem.

[linguoboy]

I can't really add anything to the language discussion because whoah, it's complicated and I haven't got much time now. But I agree that the languages on itself aren't the real problem.

I don't think I can recall any purely linguistic disputes anywhere in the world. It's always a proxy for something else, generally economic and political power.

[md0]

I don't think I can recall any purely linguistic disputes anywhere in the world. It's always a proxy for something else, generally economic and political power.

This.

----

I've recently been to Brussels for the first time in my life.

I was amazed. Everyone speaks French

A friend of mine worked in Brussels until few weeks ago. I asked him if he had any problems with the French around him (he doesn't speak it), and he told me that after English, Turkish is the language most used in Brussels. Make of that what you will

[CityBird]

and what some of the solutions are?

To be honest, IMHO the only real realistic solution is “to live with it” as we have been doing all along.

I supposed the most "straight-forward" solution is for Flanders and Wallonia to separate

Unlikely to happen anytime soon. IMHO chances that Scotland or Catalunya get their independence are far higher. But then again miracles do happen from time to time .

Make it a European federal territory, comparable to the District of Columbia in the US, so it belongs to everyone and to no one.

Not sure what the Belgians living there (both French and Flemish speaking) would think of that.

We are still light years from that but if Belgium is to split, this is the only feasible option.
For most Flemish, except the most extreme, this would be an acceptable compromise in case of disintegration and in certain circles this model is even actively promoted simply because it is the “best way out”.
Most Walloon politicians still count or hope that Brussels becomes part of Wallonia in case of a split, so this is generally not an acceptable option for them.

They could stay Belgium, but how would that solve the language problems? I suppose everyone could be made to learn both languages and everything kept bilingual at official level

This would have been an option during the time when Belgium was still a unitary state. The idea to make the entire country bi-lingual would have gone without any resistance in Flanders however not with the French-speakers (There are huge differences between how Flemish and Walloons view the country, definitely in that period)
This opportunity has also been forfeited when the late Wilfried Martens pushed for the model of a federal country. He got his will and the individual governments now know how power tastes. There is no way back.

What language problems are we talking about? Are they real problems?

The language divide on its own is obviously not a problem, but the resulting communication issues, or better lack thereof is indeed real. You can’t have a marriage if you are unable to speak to your wife or husband, can you.

Those who want independence are far from being a majority (15% or something like that in Flanders, also 85% of them feel Belgian not even Flemish so there's that, too) so I don't even know why we're discussing it. It seems very unlikely.

There’s some truth in that, however I don't think anybody knows the exact figures. I would guess that about 30% of the Flemish would actively seek independence. At Walloon side this figure is only a fraction of this.

I have heard British people answering “Scottish” at hotel check-in counters when asked to register their nationality. No Belgian in the right state of mind would ever do that.

There are however huge differences between Flanders and Walloons how the remainder views a possible separation. Very few Flemish would feel uneasy if tomorrow somebody would declare Flanders independent. At the French-speaking side of the language border that feeling is very, very different.

Well they haven't done a very good job of it so far, and they live in the same country. At least if they were separate countries there would be a clear border for their respective juristictions.

Your notion of this issue is quite accurate. However this judicial divide does in fact exist at least on paper. The problem is the interpretation. For the Flemish the geographical boundaries of this judicial divide are absolute and no longer negotiable, except for the “unresolved” issues like BHV, for the Walloons they’re fluid. This is a major point of conflict.

I thought the Flemish learn French already, but the Walloons don't learn Flemish?

I know that that's the trend, but I'm not sure if that's down to the schools' policies or just the culture there. It's not gone un noticed by the Flems though, who are quite annoyed about it.

To be honest I don’t know the exact figures either but, I put the people who have a passable command of French at around 30%. What I can say however is that this figure is on a steady decline. The reason is twofold.
- French itself does no longer have the importance it once had.
- Tit for tat behaviour on the part of the Flemish.
When I was in school (30 years ago) one could choose between English or French as 2nd language the other language automatically became 3rd then. I was told that French is mandatory as 2nd language today. I am not 100% sure though.

I was amazed. Everyone speaks French, I didn't hear much Flemish at all, in fact, I think I heard more Netherlandic Dutch than Flemish Dutch. And everyone spoke French to us, or English.

Your notion is skewed, probably because you were there as a tourist. During weekdays literally one million commute from Flanders to Brussels for work, which turns Brussels into a Flemish conclave. Most of this however takes place behind the walls of office buildings.

I don't think I can recall any purely linguistic disputes anywhere in the world. It's always a proxy for something else, generally economic and political power.

I agree, but it is the in-communication caused by the linguistic divide that exacerbates the problem. A person from (depressed) Detroit can easily move to San Francisco in search for job opportunities without leaving his linguistic comfort zone. Although this does not necessarily equalize economic divides it ensures that economic divides do not align with cultural divides, which is precisely the case in Belgium.

Turkish is the language most used in Brussels. Make of that what you will

Almost correct, it is Arabic , which is kind of ironic. A century ago French, which almost wiped Dutch completely of the Brussels map, now finds itself under threat by English and Arabic. It is just a matter of time when at least one becomes official.

PS: To illustrate the disconnect some foreigners have with this “problem”, I recall the following anecdote. In attempts by the government to force a solution, we once had several foreign advisers here to get a fresh, “unbiased” view on the problem. Among them were Swiss, Canadians, and last but not least a German lady. I still remember the TV interview with her where she proposed a solution by making Belgium entirely French-speaking. I don’t know how true this was, but the story went around that the inviting Belgian politicians had asked her if she wanted police protection on her way back to Germany .

[Saim]

A century ago French, which almost wiped Dutch completely of the Brussels map, now finds itself under threat by English and Arabic. It is just a matter of time when at least one becomes official.

I somehow doubt it. English maybe (although I certainly hope not) - but what 3rd generation Arab Brusselaar is actually going to be competent in Arabic?

[CityBird]

I somehow doubt it. English maybe (although I certainly hope not) - but what 3rd generation Arab Brusselaar is actually going to be competent in Arabic?

Unfortunately in Dutch but the taalbarometer (language barometer) monitors this, and their 12-yearly study shows some interesting developments, especially on language diversity.

[Saim]

Niet zo jammer - ik versta wel Nederlands.

Kijk maar de cijfers van de Arabischtalige bevolking: rondom de helft spreken ook een andere taal thuis (in alle drie Taalbarometers). Dat is geen teken van de gezondheid van een taal - in een tweetalige situatie, de overheersende taal gewoonlijk slikt de kleinere taal door na weinige generaties - talen sterven niet onmiddelijk uit, ze maken gewoonlijk door een tweetalige fase. Ze zijn ook geconcentreerd in stedelijke plekken, waar het contact met anderen taalgroepen is makkelijker (wat leidt tot een eentaligheid in de taal die eens de lingua franca was). Daarom, we kunnen besluiten dat het Arabisch weinige generaties in Brussels heeft.

Met betrekking tot de situatie van het Engels, er zijn weinige moedertaalsprekers - het gebruik van het Engels dus kan niet worden vergeleken met het gebruik van het Arabisch. Ik denk dat de Brusselaars het Engels als officiele taal zullen niet erkennen want ze beschouwen het niet als hun eigen taal, hoewel ze Engels kunnen spreken.