European Parliament Elections 2014

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Luís
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Luís » 2014-06-03, 20:13

xivrox wrote:So, I voted for KNP today, the only party I agree with


:shock:

Is this for real? I read an interview with the leader of that party (Janusz Korwin-Mikke) today and I'm still in shock.

For those who can't read Portuguese, the main topics are:

- Women shouldn't be allowed to vote
- Whoever gives money to unemployed people should have their hands chopped off
- Health care should never be free
- Hitler didn't know about the Holocaust
- People who go to jail should be regularly whipped
- He has whipped his sons frequently when they were growing up (to make them strong men)
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby md0 » 2014-06-03, 20:25

xivrox has stated that he believes in all those policies in the past, so what's surprising here?
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-06-03, 20:33

I finally voted for M5S, now they're thinking about forming an alliance with UKIP. I don't like that party economy-wise (neo-liberals bleah...) but I like many of their views on the euro and the EU, so after all I'm quite happy about that.

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby md0 » 2014-06-03, 20:42

neo-liberals [...] so after all I'm quite happy about that.

I can't help but judge this class betrayal, Ipse :(
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-06-03, 20:47

meidei wrote:
neo-liberals [...] so after all I'm quite happy about that.

I can't help but judge this class betrayal, Ipse :(


Maybe I didn't express myself very well, the party I voted for isn't neo-liberal at all. I was talking about UKIP.

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby md0 » 2014-06-03, 20:49

It's in alliance with UKIP. What's more to say?
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-06-03, 20:53

meidei wrote:It's in alliance with UKIP. What's more to say?


It's an alliance with that because they're eurosceptic (I think M5S is eurosceptic in a milder way than UKIP though).

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Lietmotiv » 2014-06-03, 20:54

xivrox wrote:
Anyway, there need to be at least 4 common characteristics for a successful country: common historical traditions, cultural bond, common language, common religion. Such supercountries consisting of a multitude of nations, ethnicities, cultures, etc. MUST collapse. This was the case with Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Yugoslavia, USSR, etc. And now you see many independence movement throughout Europe. The Union as a supercountry is a very bad idea. If EU still goes this path of integration it will lead to its collapse and wars. And it won’t be the question of “if” but “when”.



USSR didn't collapse because of this. USSR collapsed because we lost the Cold war and because the fact, that the economic system we had was overrated. We did had a common language(unlike the EU, common values, common history - most of the republics were part of the Russian Empire etc). Same thing with Yugoslavia. So I see no reason why EU should collapse now. Most Empires collapse because of some foreign intervention.
Last edited by Lietmotiv on 2014-06-04, 11:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby md0 » 2014-06-03, 21:00

IpseDixit wrote:
meidei wrote:It's in alliance with UKIP. What's more to say?


It's an alliance with that because they're eurosceptic (I think M5S is eurosceptic in a milder way than UKIP though).


Yeah, I strongly believe that the ends do not justify the means. This is why I was suspicious of M5S from the start. Too vague, too populist, no clear political orientation... of course they'd side with UKIP, I shouldn't be surprised.

UKIP is a very thinly-veiled racist party (on top of being neoliberal), if other eurosceptics enter an alliance with them, just because they agree on a single issue, they are whitewashing it. Those are weird times we live in, one must be extra careful when picking allies.
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-06-03, 21:20

meidei wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:
meidei wrote:It's in alliance with UKIP. What's more to say?


It's an alliance with that because they're eurosceptic (I think M5S is eurosceptic in a milder way than UKIP though).


Yeah, I strongly believe that the ends do not justify the means. This is why I was suspicious of M5S from the start. Too vague, too populist, no clear political orientation... of course they'd side with UKIP, I shouldn't be surprised.

UKIP is a very thinly-veiled racist party (on top of being neoliberal), if other eurosceptics enter an alliance with them, just because they agree on a single issue, they are whitewashing it. Those are weird times we live in, one must be extra careful when picking allies.


It's not that I voted for them being 100% convinced. But I deemed them the most acceptable. If we look at the left side of the spectrum: PD is just an old style Italian Christian Democracy desguised as a left party; they are staunch pro-everything-Europe-says people, they have a lot of lobbyists behind and they are much closer to Berlusconi than many people abroad may think. Tsipras is pro-euro and the other left parties are just a bunch of inepts who never did anything concrete for this country.

Moreover, I would like to see M5S in action before judging them.

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Saim » 2014-06-03, 23:17

Luís wrote:
xivrox wrote:So, I voted for KNP today, the only party I agree with


:shock:

Is this for real? I read an interview with the leader of that party (Janusz Korwin-Mikke) today and I'm still in shock.

For those who can't read Portuguese, the main topics are:

- Women shouldn't be allowed to vote
- Whoever gives money to unemployed people should have their hands chopped off
- Health care should never be free
- Hitler didn't know about the Holocaust
- People who go to jail should be regularly whipped
- He has whipped his sons frequently when they were growing up (to make them strong men)


Half of the Polish people I know have voted for this party. :?

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2014-06-04, 15:22

Luís wrote:
xivrox wrote:So, I voted for KNP today, the only party I agree with


:shock:

Is this for real? I read an interview with the leader of that party (Janusz Korwin-Mikke) today and I'm still in shock.

:lol: So it started already! The interviewer was really prepared and knew what are the most controversial and irrelevant things he says.. And I’m really surprised how he is so unable to deal with the media, one would expect that from him after more than 25 years in the politics. :roll:

Anyway, now to explain a few things. Janusz Korwin-Mikke is an eccentric, that’s rather obvious. :lol: Most of these are his personal views; in no party documents, statutes, etc. is there a word about them. And party members or supporters mostly disagree with them, because it’s not what the party is all about.

- Women shouldn't be allowed to vote

Well, he also says nobody should be allowed to vote, because he personally believes in monarchy. But yeah, he indeed says that. It’s not a part of the program, and I don’t agree.

- Whoever gives money to unemployed people should have their hands chopped off

Oh how I love his colourful metaphors. Not ‘whoever’, but ‘the state’. It’s a difference, because you are free to do whatever you want with your money, so you can give it to whoever you want. However, Korwin-Mikke is strongly against redistribution of wealth, and that unemployment grants make the unemployed lazier. (“Why should the working people be punished for their work [in the form of income taxes], and unemployed rewarded for their unemployment?”) It is a part of the program, and I do agree.

- Health care should never be free

Exactly. It should be privatized. Public healthcare is quite a modern invention, and isn’t necessary. Part of their program, and I agree.

- Hitler didn't know about the Holocaust

He never said that. He said that there is no evidence for it, which is true AFAIK. He is indifferent to that, because we’ll never know for sure. But IIRC there’s a reward of £1 million for anyone who finds it... But it’s irrelevant, I don’t know why he even bothers, especially as a politician.. :roll:

- People who go to jail should be regularly whipped

Hmm, never heard that one, so I can’t really comment.

- He has whipped his sons frequently when they were growing up (to make them strong men)

And I don’t understand why it matters, it’s his personal life.

---
The interviewer was prepared but not enough. I’ll help you find controversial things he said. The most recent one was “women like to be raped” (not actual quote, just a catchy headline), or “Paralympics are like chess competition for morons”.

It certainly gives him publicity, and time on screen, which he most probably wouldn’t get speaking “normally”. The proof is that he is the most recognizable conservative liberal in Poland, media don’t care about others, because others aren’t that eccentric. They try to show him in bad light, so they invite him to talk about Hitler, cripples, and women, but then he talks about serious and important stuff.

And it works. Women support and vote for KNP, disabled support and vote for KNP, and especially young people. The future looks bright for KNP, you just need to look at polls in high schools and universities, like this one. On Facebook he is the most “liked” Polish politician, and KNP is the most liked party. So, again, it works. Controversies bring publicity, and then he can talk about the important stuff.

meidei wrote:xivrox has stated that he believes in all those policies in the past from the future, so what's surprising here?
Here, fixed that for you. But no, not all.

UKIP is cool btw, I like Nigel Farage’s speeches, and I hope Korwin-Mikke will do the same.

Saim wrote:Half of the Polish people I know have voted for this party. :?

:good4u:

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Saim » 2014-06-04, 16:35

xivrox wrote:He never said that. He said that there is no evidence for it, which is true AFAIK. He is indifferent to that, because we’ll never know for sure. But IIRC there’s a reward of £1 million for anyone who finds it...


Find me one reputable historian that honestly doubts that the holocaust happened. And don't try to justify the fact that no-one in any university doubts it by some global academic conspiracy, please.
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2014-06-04, 16:48

Saim wrote:
xivrox wrote:He never said that. He said that there is no evidence for it, which is true AFAIK. He is indifferent to that, because we’ll never know for sure. But IIRC there’s a reward of £1 million for anyone who finds it...


Find me one reputable historian that honestly doubts that the holocaust happen. And don't try to justify the fact that no-o in any university doubts it by some global academic conspiracy, please.

I might be crazy, but not "Holocaust denial" crazy. The thing here is whether Hitler knew about that or its scale, and afaik there's no evidence. And that's what Korwin-Mikke says. Personally I think he knew though, but all that is really irrelevant. :roll:

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Saim » 2014-06-04, 18:09

There is evidence of intent, I'm not sure what else you want:

Adolf Hitler wrote:One thing I should like to say on this day which may be memorable for others as well as for us Germans: In the course of my life I have very often been a prophet, and have usually been ridiculed for it. During the time of my struggle for power it was in the first instance the Jewish race which only received my prophecies with laughter when I said that I would one day take over the leadership of the State, and with it that of the whole nation, and that I would then among many other things settle the Jewish problem. Their laughter was uproarious, but I think that for some time now they have been laughing on the other side of their face. Today I will once more be a prophet: If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!


What does Korwin-Mikke think, that Hitler was just sitting about thinking about the war while the rest of the German state spontaniously carried out genocide with no input from the totalitarian leader?

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby loqu » 2014-06-04, 22:12

I need more than two hands for the amount of facepalms required.
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby TeneReef » 2014-06-04, 22:20

xivrox wrote:4
Exactly. It should be privatized. Public healthcare is quite a modern invention, and isn’t necessary.


Any kind of organized healthcare is a relatively modern invention, private or public.

So, by combing this fact with your logic, we could say: organized healthcare is quite a modern invention, and it isn't necessary.


As for Hitler, it's kinda strange some Polish trying to defend him...
Do they realize Poland is one of the countries that suffered the most in WW2. :hmm:
Nazis hated all Slavs, and no, they didn't care whether it was Catholic Slavs or Orthodox Slavs involved.
If Hitler had won WW2, I guarantee you he would have exterminated all Slavs once Jewish question was finalized. :ohwell:
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Lietmotiv » 2014-06-04, 22:27

TeneReef wrote:
Nazis hated all Slavs, and no, they didn't care whether it was Catholic Slavs or Orthodox Slavs involved.


Nazies hated (except Jews, Rroma and so on) the Soviet people(Russians& other Soviet nations). On the other hand, they had a "good cooperation policy" with countries like Bulgaria and Croatia.

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby TeneReef » 2014-06-04, 22:29

AndreiB wrote:
TeneReef wrote:
Nazis hated all Slavs, and no, they didn't care whether it was Catholic Slavs or Orthodox Slavs involved.


Nazies hated (except Jews, Rroma and so on) the Soviet people(Russians& other Soviet nations). On the other hand, they had a "good cooperation policy" with countries like Bulgaria and Croatia.

What do you mean by countries?

75% of Croatians fought against the Nazis,
lead by Croatian marshal Tito,
which was comparable to % of French
joining or sympathizing the French resistance
(Officially, France, as a country, had good ''cooperation policy'' with
Germany, especially the Vichy republic).
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Lietmotiv » 2014-06-04, 22:36

TeneReef wrote:75% of Croatians fought against the Nazis,
lead by Croatian marshal Tito,

Regimes, then, not countries. There were these guys, Ustase(if I'm not wrong), the ones responsible for the Serbian Genocide, who were one of Hitler's allies.


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