European Parliament Elections 2014

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Патрислав Андреевич

Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2014-05-26, 22:02

loqu wrote:
xivrox wrote:
loqu wrote:Hey, well done for celebrating xenophobia. Those nice people in those parties make this world a better place to live... if you're NOT a migrant.
I’d choose them over the ones calling for more “European integration” at all times. I don’t care what they want to do in their respective countries, it’s not my problem. I care about what they want to do with EU, and since we’re forced to be part of it, I support them in their anti-unionism. :roll:

I feel there's a non-sequitur somewhere. You're wrong in something: you are not forced to be part of the EU and if you Poles want to pull out, you may want to vote for a political party that has that in their program for your own parliamentary elections. Celebrating the rise of fascist anti-unionist parties in other countries is celebrating their policies.

1. We need the anti-unionist voice to be heard, and how to do it better than from inside of it? (It’s not like you can do much more in the europarliament anyway.)
2. Am I celebrating their win in their national elections, or the europarliament one? Which one of the “oh so fascist and xenophobic” policies they support can be introduced at the europarliament level? Exactly. I don’t care what are their views in these issues because they cannot make use of them there anyway. What I care about is that they can weaken the Union from inside which will make it possible to withdraw from it, or at least undo the integration movement and reform it.

I don’t care what they want to do in their respective countries, it’s not my problem.

ever heard of what sympathy is?

I did, but I don’t know what does sympathy have to do with that. I’m glad they entered europarliament because I happen to live in the EU and it may have influence on me. I don’t care what voters choose on national level in their countries, because it will not influence me and it’s their will.

xivrox wrote:
I can celebrate that the Spanish equivalent to those xenophobic bigots haven't managed to get a single seat in the European Parliament - we had 54 to assign and they got none of them.
That’s sad. Spain has yet to wake up, the rest of Europe slowly is. :yep:

Spain in lots of topics acts as if we lived isolated from Europe -the Pyrenees are a big psychological barrier- and this is one of those topics. I'm glad our own bigots still live in their own folkloric bigotry and haven't copied these outright xenophobic fads so popular in Europe right now.

Yeah, yeah, we know it already. Everyone who’s not a “Good European™” is a fascist xenophobic whatever-else-phobic bigot or a nazi.... or a “reactionist extremist enemy of the working class bla bla” (noticed the similarity?).

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-26, 22:40

xivrox wrote:
loqu wrote:
xivrox wrote:
loqu wrote:Hey, well done for celebrating xenophobia. Those nice people in those parties make this world a better place to live... if you're NOT a migrant.
I’d choose them over the ones calling for more “European integration” at all times. I don’t care what they want to do in their respective countries, it’s not my problem. I care about what they want to do with EU, and since we’re forced to be part of it, I support them in their anti-unionism. :roll:

I feel there's a non-sequitor somewhere. You're wrong in something: you are not forced to be part of the EU and if you Poles want to pull out, you may want to vote for a political party that has that in their program for your own parliamentary elections. Celebrating the rise of fascist anti-unionist parties in other countries is celebrating their policies.

1. We need the anti-unionist voice to be heard, and how to do it better than from inside of it? (It’s not like you can do much more in the Europarliament anyway.)
2. Am I celebrating their win in their national elections, or the Europarliament one? Which one of the “oh so fascist and xenophobic” policies they support can be introduced at the Europarliament level? Exactly. I don’t care what are their views in these issues because they cannot make use of them there anyway. What I care about is that they can weaken the Union from inside which will make it possible to withdraw from it, or at least undo the integration movement and reform it.
3. The Union is probably more fascist than they are.
I agree with this. Xivrox is not glad of imposing will on others; Xivrox just wants those views which Xivrox supports to reign supreme in a specific area, thus creating a gigantic ripple effect that effects everyone (but xivrox don't care), and . :makestotalsense:
Sarcasm aside, I do agree with one part; people use fascism to mean things that have naught to do with fascism. It's like communism and captialism: no matter the system, people will abuse it, so stop using these as slurs.

xivrox wrote:
I don’t care what they want to do in their respective countries, it’s not my problem.

ever heard of what sympathy is?

I did, but I don’t know what sympathy has to do with that. I’m glad they entered europarliament because I happen to live in the EU and it may have influence on me. I don’t care what voters choose on national level in their countries, because it will not influence me and it’s their will.
I sense a troubling recurring theme here...
"I don't care"
"I don't care"
"I don't care"
:hmm: I take it that you don't care. Maybe you're unaware of this, but sympathy involves caring. Maybe you're just thinking of the wrong word, in which case, now you know.

xivrox wrote:
xivrox wrote:
I can celebrate that the Spanish equivalent to those xenophobic bigots haven't managed to get a single seat in the European Parliament - we had 54 to assign and they got none of them.
That’s sad. Spain has yet to wake up, the rest of Europe slowly is. :yep:

Spain in lots of topics acts as if we lived isolated from Europe -the Pyrenees are a big psychological barrier- and this is one of those topics. I'm glad our own bigots still live in their own folkloric bigotry and haven't copied these outright xenophobic fads so popular in Europe right now.

Yeah, yeah, we know it already. Everyone who’s not a “Good European™” is a fascist xenophobic whatever-else-phobic bigot or a nazi.... or a “reactionist extremist enemy of the working class bla bla” (noticed the similarity?).
Yup. All of those labels are inherently incorrect for the movement. A better one is the "Basic Human Nature" movement. You see, humanity in its early days evolved to look out for their own tribe and to keep out others, because they couldn't be trusted. However, this instinct can now be likened to the appendix. The appendix certainly doesn't help any with digestion, yet can be disastrous when stimulated. In the same way, when people appeal to this primal instinct, it has only really led to poverty, unrest, oppression, and war (with at least one exception that someone is probably going to call me on yet again). Therefore, thank you, nationalism! Thank you for doing that thing, the thing that power hungry idiots rile the people into doing, once again!
Well, that was a thing.
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-05-27, 0:24

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:The appendix certainly doesn't help any with digestion, yet can be disastrous when stimulated.

Actually it is now thought to help maintain healthy bacteria levels in intestines and recover from illness. And nationalism actually only evolved in 19th century, plus milder forms have some benefits like helping preserve cultural heritage, languages and such

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-27, 2:42

Sol Invictus wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:The appendix certainly doesn't help any with digestion, yet can be disastrous when stimulated.

Actually it is now thought to help maintain healthy bacteria levels in intestines and recover from illness.
Okay. You get my point though.
Sol Invictus wrote:And nationalism actually only evolved in 19th century, plus milder forms have some benefits like helping preserve cultural heritage, languages and such
:doh:
given this, please tell me how it applies solely to nationalism:
"humanity in its early days evolved to look out for their own tribe and to keep out others"
Well, that was a thing.
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-05-27, 3:25

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:given this, please tell me how it applies solely to nationalism:
"humanity in its early days evolved to look out for their own tribe and to keep out others"

Hey, I needed to say something besides pointing out how our innards work :ohwell: You were making a point about nationalism in your post though and I don't think xenophobia is natural

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-27, 3:31

Sol Invictus wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:given this, please tell me how it applies solely to nationalism:
"humanity in its early days evolved to look out for their own tribe and to keep out others"

Hey, I needed to say something besides pointing out how our innards work :ohwell: You were making a point about nationalism in your post though and I don't think xenophobia is natural
Well, it is. Why do you think it's so popular? Because it makes no sense? :lol:
Well, that was a thing.
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Sol Invictus » 2014-05-27, 3:38

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:given this, please tell me how it applies solely to nationalism:
"humanity in its early days evolved to look out for their own tribe and to keep out others"

Hey, I needed to say something besides pointing out how our innards work :ohwell: You were making a point about nationalism in your post though and I don't think xenophobia is natural
Well, it is. Why do you think it's so popular? Because it makes no sense? :lol:

All people need safety, if it was extension of that need we'd all be xenophobes. IMHO it is a physiological issue just like other phobias and prejudices, perhaps it is caused by need for protection in some cases, but that need is hugely exaggerated, it is not normal

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-27, 14:02

Sol Invictus wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:given this, please tell me how it applies solely to nationalism:
"humanity in its early days evolved to look out for their own tribe and to keep out others"

Hey, I needed to say something besides pointing out how our innards work :ohwell: You were making a point about nationalism in your post though and I don't think xenophobia is natural
Well, it is. Why do you think it's so popular? Because it makes no sense? :lol:

All people need safety, if it was extension of that need we'd all be xenophobes. IMHO it is a physiological issue just like other phobias and prejudices, perhaps it is caused by need for protection in some cases, but that need is hugely exaggerated, it is not normal
IT IS! Here:
Racism: extremely prevalent in all parts of the world as late as 1700AD
Dogmatism: just now starting to go away
Sexism: still prevalent today
Nationalism: moreso
Homophobia: even moreso than nationalism
All of these things are very, if not completely, irrational. Therefore, why are they so widespread? If it's not natural, then why do so many people buy in to such completely stupid crap?
Well, that was a thing.
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby kevin » 2014-05-27, 15:05

xivrox wrote:(It’s not like you can do much more in the europarliament anyway.)

And that's the main problem. Things have improved a lot with the Lisbon treaty and we can be glad to have this parliament, but it is still lacking some power before it can be considered a real parliament. The legitimation of too many decisions is still too indirect because the parliament isn't as involved as it should be.

Of course, I draw a completely different conclusion: We need to continue reforming the processes how decisions are made, but destroying the union would really be going backwards.

What I care about is that they can weaken the Union from inside which will make it possible to withdraw from it

It's legally possible to withdraw now, so you must be referring to practical reasons for not leaving the EU. Does this mean that you first need to artificially make the union worse than it is today before you have a chance making a point for leaving it?

IpseDixit

Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-27, 15:38

It's legally possible to withdraw now, so you must be referring to practical reasons for not leaving the EU. Does this mean that you first need to artificially make the union worse than it is today before you have a chance making a point for leaving it?


What does artificially mean? And don't euroskeptics have a right to be represented in the EUparliament?

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-27, 15:59

IpseDixit wrote:
It's legally possible to withdraw now, so you must be referring to practical reasons for not leaving the EU. Does this mean that you first need to artificially make the union worse than it is today before you have a chance making a point for leaving it?


What does artificially mean? And don't euroskeptics have a right to be represented in the EUparliament?
Yes. No matter how stupid or conterproductive we may think them, they have that right.
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Патрислав Андреевич

Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2014-05-27, 16:03

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:I agree with this. Xivrox is not glad of imposing will on others; Xivrox just wants those views which Xivrox supports to reign supreme in a specific area, thus creating a gigantic ripple effect that effects everyone (but xivrox don't care), and . :makestotalsense:
:?:
Yes, of course I would like to see more people with similar views to mine in the europarliament. What happens on national level elsewhere is no concern to me, but europarliament unfortunately is. I’m afraid I don’t understand what you’re trying to imply here.

I sense a troubling recurring theme here...
"I don't care"
"I don't care"
"I don't care"
:hmm: I take it that you don't care. Maybe you're unaware of this, but sympathy involves caring. Maybe you're just thinking of the wrong word, in which case, now you know.
Then I’m not sympathetic to them, whatever. :roll: It’s their choice who their choose to national parliaments.

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:IT IS! Here:
Racism: extremely prevalent in all parts of the world as late as 1700AD
Dogmatism: just now starting to go away
Sexism: still prevalent today
Nationalism: moreso
Homophobia: even moreso than nationalism
All of these things are very, if not completely, irrational. Therefore, why are they so widespread? If it's not natural, then why do so many people buy in to such completely stupid crap?
“I don’t understand something, therefore it’s irrational.”

kevin wrote:And that's the main problem. Things have improved a lot with the Lisbon treaty and we can be glad to have this parliament, but it is still lacking some power before it can be considered a real parliament. The legitimation of too many decisions is still too indirect because the parliament isn't as involved as it should be.

Of course, I draw a completely different conclusion: We need to continue reforming the processes how decisions are made, but destroying the union would really be going backwards.
No. Just no. What improved? Enlighten me, because I see the Lisbon treaty as one of the worst things ever, and Polish president Lech Kaczyński is a traitor of Polish interests by signing it. He should’ve be sentenced for that. Unfortunately he had died.
Anyway about the parliament: that’s exactly what anti-unionists don’t want. It should never be a real parliament. It shouldn’t exist in the first place. And all of this political crap imposing their decisions on member states. We want to take power back home. The political structures of the EU are the greatest waste of money that has ever existed in the history of humanity.

It's legally possible to withdraw now, so you must be referring to practical reasons for not leaving the EU. Does this mean that you first need to artificially make the union worse than it is today before you have a chance making a point for leaving it?
Huh? Formally there is, practically it’s almost impossible. By “weakening the union” I meant showing all the absurdities that happen there, unveiling the wasteful machinery, etc. And to take positions and money from those socialists, traitors and eurocrats. And just showing that we have voice, and that there ARE people who are dissatisfied and who see that EU is a crap. All that propaganda against anti-unionists only shows that they are scared about their positions. Pigs are scared their trough is taken from them. Yes, be scared. :evil:

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Thank you common sense man!
:lol:

I am strongly opposed to creating the European super-country, more integration, decisions being imposed on members states, stupid and absurd regulations, waste of money. I don’t want Brussels to decide ANYTHING that happens in Poland.

IpseDixit

Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-05-27, 16:11

Yes. No matter how stupid or conterproductive we may think them, they have that right


How lucky we are then that in this case they're not stupid and counterproductive ;)

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-05-27, 16:21

IpseDixit wrote:
Yes. No matter how stupid or conterproductive we may think them, they have that right


How lucky we are then that in this case they're not stupid and counterproductive ;)

And how lucky we are that dogmatism is just now starting to go away, right JuxtapositionQMan? How lucky we are to have such rational people around to show us how to think freely and without prejudices.

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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-27, 16:26

xivrox wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:I agree with this. Xivrox is not glad of imposing will on others; Xivrox just wants those views which Xivrox supports to reign supreme in a specific area, thus creating a gigantic ripple effect that effects everyone (but xivrox don't care), and . :makestotalsense:
:?:
Yes, of course I would like to see more people with similar views to mine in the europarliament. What happens on national level elsewhere is no concern to me, but europarliament unfortunately is. I’m afraid I don’t understand what you’re trying to imply here.


xivrox wrote:
I sense a troubling recurring theme here...
"I don't care"
"I don't care"
"I don't care"
:hmm: I take it that you don't care. Maybe you're unaware of this, but sympathy involves caring. Maybe you're just thinking of the wrong word, in which case, now you know.
Then I’m not sympathetic to them, whatever. :roll: It’s their choice who their choose to national parliaments.
I rest my case.

xivrox wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:IT IS! Here:
Racism: extremely prevalent in all parts of the world as late as 1700AD
Dogmatism: just now starting to go away
Sexism: still prevalent today
Nationalism: moreso
Homophobia: even moreso than nationalism
All of these things are very, if not completely, irrational. Therefore, why are they so widespread? If it's not natural, then why do so many people buy in to such completely stupid crap?
“I don’t understand something; therefore it’s irrational.”
Close: "I understand exactly why something is counterproductive and see several better alternatives, along with many other people, so it's not just me; therefore it's irrational."

xivrox wrote:
kevin wrote:And that's the main problem. Things have improved a lot with the Lisbon treaty and we can be glad to have this parliament, but it is still lacking some power before it can be considered a real parliament. The legitimation of too many decisions is still too indirect because the parliament isn't as involved as it should be.

Of course, I draw a completely different conclusion: We need to continue reforming the processes how decisions are made, but destroying the union would really be going backwards.
No. Just no. What improved? Enlighten me, because I see the Lisbon treaty as one of the worst things ever, and Polish president Lech Kaczyński is a traitor of Polish interests by signing it. He should’ve be sentenced for that. Unfortunately he had died.
No matter the system, people will abuse it. Get used to that. Poland without the EU will eventually be as corrupt as Poland with the EU. All you can hope to do is fix the current situation and prevent it in the future. The US Constitution can be amended, so so can a few stupid EU policies.
xivrox wrote:Anyway about the parliament: that’s exactly what anti-unionists don’t want. It should never be a real parliament. It shouldn’t exist in the first place. And all of this political crap imposing their decisions on member states. We want to take power back home. The political structures of the EU are the greatest waste of money that has ever existed in the history of humanity.
The point of parliament is that everyone gets a say (yes, including you).

xivrox wrote:
It's legally possible to withdraw now, so you must be referring to practical reasons for not leaving the EU. Does this mean that you first need to artificially make the union worse than it is today before you have a chance making a point for leaving it?
Huh? Formally there is, practically it’s almost impossible. By “weakening the union” I meant showing all the absurdities that happen there, unveiling the wasteful machinery, etc. And to take positions and money from those socialists, traitors and eurocrats. And just showing that we have voice, and that there ARE people who are dissatisfied and who see that EU is a crap. All that propaganda against anti-unionists only shows that they are scared about their positions. Pigs are scared their trough is taken from them. Yes, be scared. :evil:
What was I saying earlier? Oh yeah...
"humanity in its early days evolved to look out for their own tribe and to keep out others"
...and what better way to do that than...
NAME CALLING!
I'm sorry xivrox. I can't take you seriously if you keep using labels like "socialists, traitors and eurocrats" or "pigs". If you don't like what they do wrong, explain what they do wrong, and don't just call names. You're not in preschool.
As for the actual comment, it's a good clarification of the previous statement, phrased in an insulting manner

xivrox wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Thank you common sense man!
:lol:

I am strongly opposed to creating the European super-country, more integration, decisions being imposed on members states, stupid and absurd regulations, waste of money. I don’t want Brussels to decide ANYTHING that happens in Poland.
...and this is why I was comparing this to the American Civil War. People in Virginia, Mississippi, ect. didn't see the US as a country. They saw it as an alliance between the states. Same here. It will turn into some big war, then who wins will determine whether it stays United or stays a collection of (nation)states.
Well, that was a thing.
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-27, 16:27

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:
Yes. No matter how stupid or conterproductive we may think them, they have that right


How lucky we are then that in this case they're not stupid and counterproductive ;)

And how lucky we are that dogmatism is just now starting to go away, right JuxtapositionQMan? How lucky we are to have such rational people around to show us how to think freely and without prejudices.
Yup. Only dislike things based on substance, not system.
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Ludwig Whitby
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2014-05-27, 17:25

Oh come on. At the same time you call those who disagree with you 'stupid and counterproductive' and then have a go at xivrox for 'calling names' and 'acting like he's in preschool'.

JuxtapositionQMan, I'm afraid that you too are dogmatic and that you too are arguing based on prejudices. You just have a different dogma, different ideology and different prejudices, like the belief in and reverence of science and rationality that you've shown.

(Now, I don't want anyone to believe that I consider myself free from all these things, because that is impossible. I'm just a wee bit skeptical.)

Патрислав Андреевич

Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2014-05-27, 17:32

The point of parliament is that everyone gets a say (yes, including you).
Umm.. We have our parliament, thanks. It’s wasteful and corrupt enough already, we don’t need any in Brussels. Poland is an independent country and I don’t want it to be ruled by her occupant, i.e. EU.

What was I saying earlier? Oh yeah...
"humanity in its early days evolved to look out for their own tribe and to keep out others"
...and what better way to do that than...
NAME CALLING!
I'm sorry xivrox. I can't take you seriously if you keep using labels like "socialists, traitors and eurocrats" or "pigs". If you don't like what they do wrong, explain what they do wrong, and don't just call names. You're not in preschool.
As for the actual comment, it's a good clarification of the previous statement, phrased in an insulting manner
I won’t use the “politically correct” newspeak, I just say who they are. And you see? This kind of language clarifies more. KNP I voted for have much more non-mainstream and ‘insulting’ rhetoric than that, and hopefully they’ll use it there. For what they do wrong... I think I’ve told it already. They steal monstrous amounts of money (i.e. 900 BILLION euro), they introduce absurd policies, regulations, bans, and limitations. Because of them we have to pay 4x more for gas than let’s say Americans. Because of them I can’t buy a lightbulb I like. Because of them Poland can’t make use of their coal resources. Because of them Polish farmers can’t sell milk straight from cow, they can’t sell non-conforming food in general, like cucumbers or apples of “wrong size”, etc. They introduced MINIMUM tax rate (minimum? it should be maximum!) They dictate the allowed curvature of banana, the allowed amount of water that can be flushed in a toilet, how to use a ladder, what can be called a marmalade and what cannot. They continue Hitler’s plan of “United Europe” and “Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Euro”. Is this enough, or should I continue? Because I can.

I am strongly opposed to creating the European super-country, more integration, decisions being imposed on members states, stupid and absurd regulations, waste of money. I don’t want Brussels to decide ANYTHING that happens in Poland.
...and this is why I was comparing this to the American Civil War. People in Virginia, Mississippi, ect. didn't see the US as a country. They saw it as an alliance between the states. Same here. It will turn into some big war, then who wins will determine whether it stays United or stays a collection of (nation)states.
The EU is not a country. Nor will it ever hopefully be (but it’s scary how it becomes more and more USSR-like). Different cultures, languages, nations, we can’t stay united... Not in an artificial political monster like this. So if the EU goes the integration way, then yes, there will be war. And it needs to be avoided.

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JuxtapositionQMan
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-05-27, 17:34

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Oh come on. At the same time you call those who disagree with you 'stupid and counterproductive' and then have a go at xivrox for 'calling names' and 'acting like he's in preschool'.

JuxtapositionQMan, I'm afraid that you too are dogmatic and that you too are arguing based on prejudices. You just have a different dogma, different ideology and different prejudices, like the belief in and reverence of science and rationality that you've shown.

(Now, I don't want anyone to believe that I consider myself free from all these things, because that is impossible. I'm just a wee bit skeptical.)
See people? SEE? This is what you should post if you genuinely want to change my mind. Say something that makes sense, and not just the same old stuff you've been saying over and over.
As for the actual comment, point taken.
xivrox wrote:...
Take note in Whitby. Glad you're explaining yourself now, though.
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kevin
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Re: European Parliament Elections 2014

Postby kevin » 2014-05-27, 18:19

IpseDixit wrote:
It's legally possible to withdraw now, so you must be referring to practical reasons for not leaving the EU. Does this mean that you first need to artificially make the union worse than it is today before you have a chance making a point for leaving it?

What does artificially mean? And don't euroskeptics have a right to be represented in the EUparliament?

If the EU is currently too good to make a point for leaving and you have to weaken it first, that is artificial worsening for me. It means that you don't want to make your point based on what the EU is today or how things could be improved in the future, but based on something you intentionally made look bad so that it isn't better than your alternative any more.

And yes, they do have a right to be represented. They even have the right to use that representation only for blocking and not for constructive participation. They are still wrong and would better just recognise that. ;)

xivrox wrote:What improved? Enlighten me, because I see the Lisbon treaty as one of the worst things ever

The parliament has a say on much more topics than before.

By the way, I was talking only about the parliament, but the Lisbon treaty is also what gave you the legal option of leaving the EU. You should probably like it if you want to stay consistent.

And all of this political crap imposing their decisions on member states. We want to take power back home.

But why do you want all of this political crap that Warsaw is imposing on you? Don't you want to take power back home, to the voivodesips or even cities?

Where I live, there was the Kingdom of Württemberg some 150 years ago. It was member in associations like the German Confederation, but really an independent state (like all the other small states in what is Germany today). Today Württemberg is not even a German federal state any more: It was merged with Baden in 1952, and there was a lot of protest. But today nobody cares any more, the old states play a role mostly when there's a football match between Stuttgart and Karlsruhe or Freiburg. There's little reason to cry for "taking the power back home".

I can't see why the same shouldn't be possible again, this time not German states getting united, but Europe as a whole.

The political structures of the EU are the greatest waste of money that has ever existed in the history of humanity.

[Citation needed] :P

It's legally possible to withdraw now [...]
Huh? Formally there is, practically it’s almost impossible.[/quote]
This is where it gets interesting. So you're saying that not being in the EU would be a problem, right? Otherwise it would just take the decision (of your national parliament, not the EU one) to terminate the EU treaties, which doesn't sound impossible at all. Except, of course, that you luckily don't have the majority to do that.


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