Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
Mars80
Posts: 168
Joined: 2013-08-22, 3:19
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby Mars80 » 2013-09-07, 16:22

Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wrong? Just because I can never get pregnant, that should mean I can't think abortion is wrong? This is nonsense, I say. It seems like prochoice people (even male prochoice people) commonly use this argument against prolife people. Is this just an excuse that prochoice people are trying to make to defend their position?

IpseDixit

Re: Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-09-07, 16:27

Yeah, it is nonsense. Indeed I've never heard anyone say such a thing.

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-09-07, 16:51

Mars80 wrote:Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wrong? Just because I can never get pregnant, that should mean I can't think abortion is wrong? This is nonsense, I say. It seems like prochoice people (even male prochoice people) commonly use this argument against prolife people. Is this just an excuse that prochoice people are trying to make to defend their position?
I say it's a strawman you've made up. I've heard pro-choicers say that male politicians shouldn't be able to enforce their morals on women, but never that men aren't allowed to even think abortion is wrong (or that women aren't allowed to; that's the whole point of "pro-choice").

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23326
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby linguoboy » 2013-09-07, 18:32

Mars80 wrote:Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wrong? Just because I can never get pregnant, that should mean I can't think abortion is wrong? This is nonsense, I say. It seems like prochoice people (even male prochoice people) commonly use this argument against prolife people. Is this just an excuse that prochoice people are trying to make to defend their position?

My issue with most anti-abortion males is that they generally don't seem to have done much exploration of what it means for a woman to make the decisions to have an abortion. In general, they show a lack of understanding of female sexuality, the impact of a pregnancy, systematic discrimination, power differentials, and the like. So it's hard for me to consider their opinion truly informed. Not being a woman doesn't mean you can't ever have an opinion about something which affects women in an extremely disproportionate way, but it does mean you have to put a lot of work into researching this opinion and give due consideration to differing points of view. And that means listening closely to women and giving their perspectives at least equal weight to your own.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Varislintu
Posts: 15330
Joined: 2004-02-09, 13:32
Real Name: M.
Gender: female
Location: Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby Varislintu » 2013-09-07, 20:41

Of course you can think about abortion what you want. You can look at the conflict of interests in an unwanted pergnancy and decide to care more about the interest of the featus than that of the grown adult. But if you want to impose your view, as a male, on the lives of real women in the form of legislation, you must be prepared to be very able to argue your position. Anti-choice women need to be able to do the same, of course, but as a man you also need to be able to prove that you also understand the issue from the point of view of a woman (like linguoboy also said).
Det finns ingen
tröst. Därför
behöver du den inte
(Gösta Ågren)

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7575
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby md0 » 2013-09-08, 10:54

Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wrong?

You can think whatever you want, and people are allowed to criticise what you think. That's one thing.
The other is that no matter what you think, you do not have the right to police other people's bodies.
So, do think that abortion is morally wrong. Do not pass legislation that bans abortion though: that will create women who try to self-abort without medical supervision, or who abandon the new born at the place of birth (we get those news distressingly often).
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)Elementary Finnish (fi)
For fun: Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)

User avatar
Lietmotiv
Posts: 1658
Joined: 2008-06-09, 9:47
Gender: male
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Re: Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby Lietmotiv » 2013-09-08, 11:06

linguoboy wrote:In general, they show a lack of understanding of female sexuality, the impact of a pregnancy, systematic discrimination, power differentials, and the like.


A better approach should also take into consideration the impact of abortion on female sexuality and further sexual development (for example, multiple abortion is know to cause what's known as an incompetent cervix — a cervix that starts dilating prematurely). As well as other phychological issues a woman might experience, such as guilt that many relationships end after an abortion because of the stress the woman might experience. Anyways, I do believe that the woman should have the right to decide, and pro-abortion propaganda, as well as anti-abortion should not interfere in her choice.

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7575
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby md0 » 2013-09-08, 12:15

It's not like "pro-abortion" people say "have an abortion every month, it's great and good fun" :para: Noone is saying that it's fun, really. But it's a choice a woman needs to have available because it's her body. If anything, "pro-abortion" folk are also pro-condom and pro-contraception, and pro-social-services-that-can-help-the-woman-who-decides-to-keep-it and pro-adoption.

On the other hand, anti-abortion folks have all sorts of psychological warfare in their campaigns.
And though not always, they also are negative towards family planning. For some of those anti-abortionists the whole thing is not about "how sacred a life is", but that sex should make a woman feel as guilty as possible, and going through an unwanted pregnancy is a "fitting punishment".
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)Elementary Finnish (fi)
For fun: Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23326
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby linguoboy » 2013-09-08, 12:47

meidei wrote:It's not like "pro-abortion" people say "have an abortion every month, it's great and good fun" :para: Noone is saying that it's fun, really. But it's a choice a woman needs to have available because it's her body. If anything, "pro-abortion" folk are also pro-condom and pro-contraception, and pro-social-services-that-can-help-the-woman-who-decides-to-keep-it and pro-adoption.

The accepted neutral term is "abortion rights". I don't know anyone who is "pro-abortion" in the sense that they think abortion in itself is a good thing. The negative effects (physical and psychological) are too well known. But, as meidei says, it's an option which should be available, if only as a last resort after all other methods of contraception have failed.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Varislintu
Posts: 15330
Joined: 2004-02-09, 13:32
Real Name: M.
Gender: female
Location: Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby Varislintu » 2013-09-08, 14:08

AndreiB wrote: A better approach should also take into consideration the impact of abortion on female sexuality and further sexual development (for example, multiple abortion is know to cause what's known as an incompetent cervix — a cervix that starts dilating prematurely). As well as other phychological issues a woman might experience, such as guilt that many relationships end after an abortion because of the stress the woman might experience.


Take into cosideration how, though? Like what do you mean in practice? Just saying, because this is on the verge of being quite patronising and infantilising of women. Like their situation needs to be thought over by someone else than herself, like she needs extra protection for her own good, like she can't understand what an abortion would mean for her. It's a bit like saying male vasectomies should be legal, but we need to, as a society, also take into consideration that the men might have some kind of side effects. Like, let's not give in to the pro-vasectomy propaganda head first, and stuff.

But in reality I think men would feel that all they need is some impartial scientific medical information and their own brains to decide what to do with their body. Society doesn't need to wring its hands over their choice.
Det finns ingen
tröst. Därför
behöver du den inte
(Gösta Ågren)

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-09-08, 18:09

Varislintu wrote:Take into cosideration how, though? Like what do you mean in practice? Just saying, because this is on the verge of being quite patronising and infantilising of women. Like their situation needs to be thought over by someone else than herself, like she needs extra protection for her own good, like she can't understand what an abortion would mean for her.
I don't think he was being patronizing, whether on purpose or not. I think he was saying that men need to take into account how difficult having an abortion can be for a woman (both the medical and psychological effects), and how difficult of a choice it is to make, before forming an opinion of their own on it.
It's a bit like saying male vasectomies should be legal, but we need to, as a society, also take into consideration that the men might have some kind of side effects. Like, let's not give in to the pro-vasectomy propaganda head first, and stuff.
A vasectomy is a far less invasive procedure, and often reversible. I don't think that's a very good analogy at all.
But in reality I think men would feel that all they need is some impartial scientific medical information and their own brains to decide what to do with their body. Society doesn't need to wring its hands over their choice.
We've already had this discussion before about how it's not just about the woman's body but the baby's - and I agreed that the woman's is more important, so let's not revisit it now. But it is a more complex moral issue than "I want to pierce my frenulum; why shouldn't I? It's my body".
If anything, "pro-abortion" folk are also pro-condom and pro-contraception, and pro-social-services-that-can-help-the-woman-who-decides-to-keep-it and pro-adoption.
In the interest of fairness, I've found the more reasonable anti-abortion people are also pro-child services and pro-adoption. It would be a little hypocritical if they weren't.

User avatar
Varislintu
Posts: 15330
Joined: 2004-02-09, 13:32
Real Name: M.
Gender: female
Location: Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby Varislintu » 2013-09-08, 18:18

I'm glad if he wasn't trying to patronize. His usage of the idea of pro-abortion propaganda, however, was what made me wonder if he thinks there really is a lobby that wants to pressure women into having abortions, even if they come with health risks.

I wasn't trying to make an exact analogy between vasectomies and abortions, more like make it more apparent why it feels patronising if society feels obligated to ponder a medical issue for you, over your head, as if you're a child that cannot be trusted with the decision.
Det finns ingen
tröst. Därför
behöver du den inte
(Gösta Ågren)

User avatar
Lur
Posts: 3052
Joined: 2012-04-15, 23:22
Location: Madrid
Country: ES Spain (España)

Re: Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby Lur » 2013-09-09, 3:32

I think women with a working uterus should have absolute control over the termination of their pregnancies at any time they personally wish.
Geurea dena lapurtzen uzteagatik, geure izaerari uko egiteagatik.

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-09-09, 18:39

Including during childbirth?
Varislintu wrote:I'm glad if he wasn't trying to patronize. His usage of the idea of pro-abortion propaganda, however, was what made me wonder if he thinks there really is a lobby that wants to pressure women into having abortions, even if they come with health risks.
Well, I'm not sure what his intent was. I'm just trying to assume good faith. He did say he was pro-choice.

And of course there's no "pro-abortion" lobby.
I wasn't trying to make an exact analogy between vasectomies and abortions, more like make it more apparent why it feels patronising if society feels obligated to ponder a medical issue for you, over your head, as if you're a child that cannot be trusted with the decision.
I don't think anyone was doing that here - but it certainly does happen all the time in legislatures worldwide. (Same goes for drug use, prostitution, and any number of social problems that would be better solved by harm reduction than outright banning.)

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7575
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby md0 » 2013-09-09, 18:46

In the interest of fairness, I've found the more reasonable anti-abortion people are also pro-child services and pro-adoption. It would be a little hypocritical if they weren't.

Could very well be so in most of the western war. Here, the approach is certainly punitive.

Including during childbirth?

It is unlikely that a person would seek a late term abortion for non-medical reasons, we can see that, don't we?
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)Elementary Finnish (fi)
For fun: Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Why does being male mean that I can't think abortion is wron

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-09-09, 18:53

It is unlikely that a person would seek a late term abortion for non-medical reasons, we can see that, don't we?
Sure, but I still don't think a late-term abortion for non-medical reasons is a procedure that should be done without very good reason.


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest