Scottish independance

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Yasna
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Re: Scottish independance

Postby Yasna » 2013-09-09, 20:17

linguoboy wrote:Oh really? So if MI6 offed both CFK and Aimé, you think the international community would be cool with that?

I said double homicide, not double assassination.

Saim wrote:How small does a population have to be for you to think they're worthless?

Nice straw man.
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linguoboy
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Re: Scottish independance

Postby linguoboy » 2013-09-09, 20:19

Lur wrote:
meidei wrote:Falklanders' will is suddenly not enough?

They don't give a fuck about the population's will. If they suddenly wanted to be under Argentine control the UK would refuse to listen and shut their mouths.

And your basis for this claim is...what exactly? Did you somehow overlook the subject of this very thread?
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md0
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Re: Scottish independance

Postby md0 » 2013-09-09, 20:25

Well, now, if I go 60 years back in our history, I can back him up. The UK needed some "negative stimuli" to leave. On the other hand, I don't think that Falklands and Gibraltar are kept against their will and neither Scotland would be forced to stay (though I believe the referendum will turn out pro-union).
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linguoboy
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Re: Scottish independance

Postby linguoboy » 2013-09-09, 20:31

Yasna wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Oh really? So if MI6 offed both CFK and Aimé, you think the international community would be cool with that?

I said double homicide, not double assassination.

You can assassinate someone without it being considered a homicide? How does that work?

You're missing my point that it's as morally and legally wrong to kill one or two people unjustly as it is to kill thousands or millions. (Now try to imagine how this principle might apply to the instance under discussion.)

Yasna wrote:
Saim wrote:How small does a population have to be for you to think they're worthless?

Nice straw man.

How is that a "straw man"? You yourself said that size matters, so it's reasonable to ask what the relevant proportions are.
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Re: Scottish independance

Postby Yasna » 2013-09-10, 3:44

linguoboy wrote:You're missing my point that it's as morally and legally wrong to kill one or two people unjustly as it is to kill thousands or millions. (Now try to imagine how this principle might apply to the instance under discussion.)

Judging by some of the comparisons that have been made, several people seem to think Argentina retaking the Falklands is as bad as Japan retaking Korea would be. My point was that proportions matter in this case. But I guess they are irrelevant to you in this case, so oh well.

Yasna wrote:
Saim wrote:How small does a population have to be for you to think they're worthless?

Nice straw man.

How is that a "straw man"? You yourself said that size matters, so it's reasonable to ask what the relevant proportions are.

I'm not saying that the Falklanders are worthless or that what country they want to belong to is irrelevant. I'm saying that the reasons I gave earlier outweigh their flag preference and it would hardly be a tragedy if they didn't get their way on it. Would you lose an ounce of sleep over a city block worth of people having to live under a different flag than they want to? If you would, I can't imagine how many sleepless nights Tibet and Xinjiang and the Caucasus have caused you.
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Saim
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Re: Scottish independance

Postby Saim » 2013-09-10, 5:15

Yasna wrote:Judging by some of the comparisons that have been made, several people seem to think Argentina retaking the Falklands is as bad as Japan retaking Korea would be. My point was that proportions matter in this case. But I guess they are irrelevant to you in this case, so oh well.

Yes, killing a million people is much worse than killing a thousand people. Still though -- don't do either. They're wrong for the same reason, the only difference is scale.

Hence, your own example of double homicide vs. genocide deconstructs your argument.

Yasna wrote:If you would, I can't imagine how many sleepless nights Tibet and Xinjiang East Turkestan and the Caucasus have caused you.

I do try my best to be ideologically consistent, yeah.

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Set
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Re: Scottish independance

Postby Set » 2013-09-10, 6:07

Lur wrote:
meidei wrote:Falklanders' will is suddenly not enough?

They don't give a fuck about the population's will. If they suddenly wanted to be under Argentine control the UK would refuse to listen and shut their mouths. So this angle is deep down moot.

It may be moot to the UK government (although if there was massive opposition to UK rule there, I doubt the gov't now would want to get involved in an unpopular war), but for this argument it's not at all moot. I don't think anyone here is arguing to keep the Falklands in the UK because they love the UK and want to defend its remnants of empire. If the people wanted to be Argentinian, I'm sure that almost everyone here would support that (maybe not Yasna...)
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Re: Scottish independance

Postby Car » 2013-09-10, 12:04

meidei wrote:Well, now, if I go 60 years back in our history, I can back him up. The UK needed some "negative stimuli" to leave. On the other hand, I don't think that Falklands and Gibraltar are kept against their will and neither Scotland would be forced to stay (though I believe the referendum will turn out pro-union).


IIRC. Cameron said that the outcome of the referendum will be respected no matter the result, so I don't see why it would be different in the case of the Falklands or Gibraltar.
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md0
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Re: Scottish independance

Postby md0 » 2013-09-10, 12:36

Yes, and I don't have any reason not to believe that any referendum won't be respected nowadays.
Half a century ago it was different though. Britain wouldn't let go.
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