Scottish independance

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!
Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
User avatar
Lazar Taxon
Posts: 1570
Joined: 2007-10-07, 8:00
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2013-09-08, 21:53

Yasna wrote:This discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Anyway, it's all somewhat of a mute point since the tyranny of distance and Argentina's unwavering pursuit of The Falklands all but guarantees that they will fall back under Argentine control eventually.
Until Argentina and her allies become more powerful than Britain and her allies, I don't think that's very likely.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag] Good: [flag=]es[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] Okay: [flag=]de[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Beginning: [flag=]it[/flag] Interested in: [flag=]he[/flag] [flag=]hi[/flag] [flag=]ru[/flag]

Today we are cats in the apocalypse!

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5397
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Saim » 2013-09-08, 21:57

Yasna wrote:This discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

Well, between supporters of democracy and sympathizers of the violent actions of fascistic regimes, there usually is very little common ground.

Anyway, it's all somewhat of a mute point since the tyranny of distance and Argentina's unwavering pursuit of The Falklands all but guarantees that they will fall back under Argentine control eventually.

That's purely speculative on your part.

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2228
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Yasna » 2013-09-08, 23:28

Lazar Taxon wrote:Until Argentina and her allies become more powerful than Britain and her allies, I don't think that's very likely.

You have a very simplistic view of how countries go to war. Just like during the last Falklands War, it's unlikely any country will care enough to help Britain salvage a tiny, remote remnant of its colonial empire. And you should also keep in mind that it is far easier (and cheaper) to defend a couple islands off your coast than to fight a war 11,000 kilometers away. The key word is supply lines.

Saim wrote:Well, between supporters of democracy and sympathizers of the violent actions of fascistic regimes, there usually is very little common ground.

It's hard to find common ground with someone who cries fascism just because a few thousand people might have to live under a different flag than they want to.

That's purely speculative on your part.

Why do you think colonial empires all but disappeared from the world? Here's a hint: it wasn't because the imperialists suddenly started caring about the rights of the oppressed.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5397
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Saim » 2013-09-08, 23:55

Yasna wrote:It's hard to find common ground with someone who cries fascism just because a few thousand people might have to live under a different flag than they want to.


I'm crying fascism because you're justifying the imperialist actions of a military junta.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... on_Process

Why do you think colonial empires all but disappeared from the world? Here's a hint: it wasn't because the imperialists suddenly started caring about the rights of the oppressed.

I can tell you don't either.

User avatar
Lazar Taxon
Posts: 1570
Joined: 2007-10-07, 8:00
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2013-09-09, 0:06

Yasna wrote:You have a very simplistic view of how countries go to war. Just like during the last Falklands War, it's unlikely any country will care enough to help Britain salvage a tiny, remote remnant of its colonial empire.
On the contrary: during the 1980s the US welcomed right-wing Latin American dictatorships as anticommunist allies, and thus were reluctant to take sides; if a war erupted now, the US would have substantially less reason not to support Britain.

Again, I fail to see how Argentina has any claim to the islands other than "they're close and we want them". Britain isn't relying on self-determination as the sole criterion for territoriality, as you suggest; they're relying on self-determination in conjunction with centuries-old precedent, which combine to form a pretty solid moral and legal justification. You may as well say that Italy should forcibly take Nice from France.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag] Good: [flag=]es[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] Okay: [flag=]de[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Beginning: [flag=]it[/flag] Interested in: [flag=]he[/flag] [flag=]hi[/flag] [flag=]ru[/flag]

Today we are cats in the apocalypse!

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2228
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Yasna » 2013-09-09, 0:07

Saim wrote:I'm crying fascism because you're justifying the imperialist actions of a military junta.

I see you don't know what imperialism means either.

Why do you think colonial empires all but disappeared from the world? Here's a hint: it wasn't because the imperialists suddenly started caring about the rights of the oppressed.

I can tell you don't either.

I'll take that as a no.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2228
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Yasna » 2013-09-09, 0:53

Lazar Taxon wrote:On the contrary: during the 1980s the US welcomed right-wing Latin American dictatorships as anticommunist allies, and thus were reluctant to take sides; if a war erupted now, the US would have substantially less reason not to support Britain.

The U.S. is having a hard time mustering the will to fire a few cruise missiles at a regime that just gassed 400 children to death. And you think they would have the will to jump into a conflict between Britain and Argentina over a few little remote islands?

Again, I fail to see how Argentina has any claim to the islands other than "they're close and we want them". Britain isn't relying on self-determination as the sole criterion for territoriality, as you suggest; they're relying on self-determination in conjunction with centuries-old precedent, which combine to form a pretty solid moral and legal justification. You may as well say that Italy should forcibly take Nice from France.

You may as well say that apples are oranges.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
Lazar Taxon
Posts: 1570
Joined: 2007-10-07, 8:00
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2013-09-09, 1:10

Yasna wrote:You may as well say that apples are oranges.
I'd say they're quite analogous: Nice is near Italy, the former sovereign power of Italy used to have a claim on it (in fact, a stronger one than Spain or Argentina ever had on the Falklands), I'm sure Italy would like to have it, and I'm sure the inhabitants, if polled, wouldn't be so keen on the idea. As I said above, I don't think "it's close and we want it" makes a compelling argument in international law. Argentina has never possessed the islands (except for a brief recent interlude), and the inhabitants don't want to be part of Argentina; I don't think there's much else to be said.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag] Good: [flag=]es[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] Okay: [flag=]de[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Beginning: [flag=]it[/flag] Interested in: [flag=]he[/flag] [flag=]hi[/flag] [flag=]ru[/flag]

Today we are cats in the apocalypse!

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2228
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Yasna » 2013-09-09, 1:16

Lazar Taxon wrote:...Okay. In any case, as I said above, I don't think "it's close and we want it" makes a compelling argument in international law.

You're right about that. How about Argentina retakes the islands, gives some nice incentives for five thousand Argentinians to move there, and then holds a plebiscite, and then it's all legal again. We cool then?
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
Lazar Taxon
Posts: 1570
Joined: 2007-10-07, 8:00
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2013-09-09, 1:18

Yasna wrote:You're right about that. How about Argentina retakes the islands, gives some nice incentives for five thousand Argentinians to move there, and then holds a plebiscite, and then it's all legal again. We cool then?
So... blatant military aggression as an excuse for annexation. Sure, yeah. I'm done with this ridiculous argument.
Last edited by Lazar Taxon on 2013-09-09, 1:20, edited 1 time in total.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag] Good: [flag=]es[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] Okay: [flag=]de[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Beginning: [flag=]it[/flag] Interested in: [flag=]he[/flag] [flag=]hi[/flag] [flag=]ru[/flag]

Today we are cats in the apocalypse!

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2228
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Yasna » 2013-09-09, 1:19

That was a joke by the way. In case you missed it.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
Lazar Taxon
Posts: 1570
Joined: 2007-10-07, 8:00
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2013-09-09, 1:22

That's no substitute for a counterargument.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag] Good: [flag=]es[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] Okay: [flag=]de[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Beginning: [flag=]it[/flag] Interested in: [flag=]he[/flag] [flag=]hi[/flag] [flag=]ru[/flag]

Today we are cats in the apocalypse!

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-09-09, 1:34

Yasna wrote:Why do you think colonial empires all but disappeared from the world?
World War II. Any more brain-busters?
The U.S. is having a hard time mustering the will to fire a few cruise missiles at a regime that just gassed 400 children to death. And you think they would have the will to jump into a conflict between Britain and Argentina over a few little remote islands?
But they don't need to. They didn't last time, as you seem to be have overlooked.

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2228
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Yasna » 2013-09-09, 1:40

Lazar Taxon wrote:That's no substitute for a counterargument.

Under international law it's legal for Britain to take the billions of dollars worth of oil off the coast of South America. International law should be broken where extenuating circumstances exist.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
Lazar Taxon
Posts: 1570
Joined: 2007-10-07, 8:00
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2013-09-09, 1:44

So it's invalid for Britain to have stolen the Falklands from no one, but it's perfectly valid for Argentina to have stolen Patagonia from the Mapuches and other indigenous peoples? Your philosophy of breaking international law doesn't make much sense to me.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag] Good: [flag=]es[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] Okay: [flag=]de[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Beginning: [flag=]it[/flag] Interested in: [flag=]he[/flag] [flag=]hi[/flag] [flag=]ru[/flag]

Today we are cats in the apocalypse!

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2228
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Yasna » 2013-09-09, 1:45

mōdgethanc wrote:World War II. Any more brain-busters?

It's a little more complicated than that Mr. Genius.

The U.S. is having a hard time mustering the will to fire a few cruise missiles at a regime that just gassed 400 children to death. And you think they would have the will to jump into a conflict between Britain and Argentina over a few little remote islands?
But they don't need to. They didn't last time, as you seem to be have overlooked.

It appears that you overlooked what I was replying to, which was Lazar's claim that the U.S. would probably intervene if Falkland War 2.0 breaks out.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2228
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Yasna » 2013-09-09, 2:00

Lazar Taxon wrote:So it's invalid for Britain to have stolen the Falklands from no one, but it's perfectly valid for Argentina to have stolen Patagonia from the Mapuches and other indigenous peoples?

Straw man.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-09-09, 2:03

Yasna wrote:It's a little more complicated than that Mr. Genius.
Sure it is. Among other things, empires became too expensive to maintain, mercantilism was no longer profitable, colonies didn't want to be ruled by a foreign power without their consent (hey, look, just like the Falklanders) and the balance of power was moving towards a bipolar system anyway. But World War II hastened all of these changes and was the final blow to imperialism. (Except Soviet imperialism, maybe.)

You can argue the "tyranny of distance" makes it harder for Britain to hold onto the Falklands in the long run, but I'm not convinced it's all that relevant in a globalized, technologically advanced world. At any rate it doesn't seem to have ever prevented Russia from holding onto their Far East territories or given the USA any trouble keeping their claim on Hawaii.
It appears that you overlooked what I was replying to, which was Lazar's claim that the U.S. would probably intervene if Falkland War 2.0 breaks out.

mōdgethanc wrote:But they don't need to. They didn't last time, as you seem to be have overlooked.

User avatar
Lazar Taxon
Posts: 1570
Joined: 2007-10-07, 8:00
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2013-09-09, 2:21

Yasna wrote:Straw man.
No, it goes directly to the origin of all these territorial claims. Why does Argentina intrinsically have a greater claim to islands off the coast of South America than Britain does? You talk about Britain's oil profits as if they're some offense against the rights of South Americans, and yet the entire genesis of Argentina's claims in this area is a campaign of genocide.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag] Good: [flag=]es[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] Okay: [flag=]de[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Beginning: [flag=]it[/flag] Interested in: [flag=]he[/flag] [flag=]hi[/flag] [flag=]ru[/flag]

Today we are cats in the apocalypse!

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2228
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Yasna » 2013-09-09, 2:27

mōdgethanc wrote:
It appears that you overlooked what I was replying to, which was Lazar's claim that the U.S. would probably intervene if Falkland War 2.0 breaks out.

mōdgethanc wrote:But they don't need to. They didn't last time, as you seem to be have overlooked.

You drive me up the wall sometimes. Surely it's beyond obvious that I wasn't implying that Britain needed the U.S. to intervene in the Falklands War. As I tried to point out to you, I was just responding to Lazar's hypothetical Falklands War 2.0. I overlooked nothing.

Why does Argentina intrinsically have a greater claim to islands off the coast of South America than Britain does?

Geography.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest