Scottish independance

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
language learner
Posts: 634
Joined: 2011-10-15, 18:41
Gender: male

Scottish independance

Postby language learner » 2013-09-02, 18:02

Apparently, there'll be a referendum in Scotland for independance in 2014. And from that site it looks like it's for real. What's your opinion on it? Is it likely that Scotland gains independance? And if yes, how will things proceed onwards? I've heard on several occasions that some scots want their independance, but besides that, nothing.

User avatar
JackFrost
Forum Administrator
Posts: 16240
Joined: 2004-11-08, 21:00
Real Name: Jack Frost
Gender: male
Location: Montréal, Québec
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby JackFrost » 2013-09-02, 19:33

If they want it, why should anyone prevent that? I really have nothing to say since I'm not Scottish and it's not really my business. Or the English's for that matter.
Neferuj paħujkij!

User avatar
Lur
Posts: 3052
Joined: 2012-04-15, 23:22
Location: Madrid
Country: ES Spain (España)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Lur » 2013-09-02, 21:40

More or less the same for me.

I hope they don't do a "we're not British" like some here do.
Geurea dena lapurtzen uzteagatik, geure izaerari uko egiteagatik.

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-09-02, 23:46

I don't care and don't see what it would change aside from Scotland getting more money from oil.
I hope they don't do a "we're not British" like some here do.
Spaniards are British?

User avatar
Wishful Learner
Posts: 1000
Joined: 2010-09-18, 7:13
Gender: male
Location: The South
Country: GB United Kingdom (United Kingdom)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Wishful Learner » 2013-09-03, 11:55

JackFrost wrote:If they want it, why should anyone prevent that? I really have nothing to say since I'm not Scottish and it's not really my business. Or the English's for that matter.


It is the English's business in the same way it would be California's business if Texas wanted to secede from the USA. The final say rests with the Scottish, but the English, Welsh, and Northern Irish are in the Union as well, so saying that it's not their business when it will impact the rest of the UK is a little unfair.
Native | Pas mal, nicht schlecht, no es malo | mi piace | Het is goed, niet waar? | わかりません | 我 是 英国人。| שלום, נעים מאוד | Quero...

Pawb at y peth y bo

User avatar
JackFrost
Forum Administrator
Posts: 16240
Joined: 2004-11-08, 21:00
Real Name: Jack Frost
Gender: male
Location: Montréal, Québec
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby JackFrost » 2013-09-04, 0:31

Wishful Learner wrote:is a little unfair.

So was how the Union was formed. The Welsh and Irish mostly certainly did not join it voluntarily. But that's another story.

What I meant by is dickblocking them, which is fortunately not the case. Sorry for a poor choice of word.
Neferuj paħujkij!

User avatar
Wishful Learner
Posts: 1000
Joined: 2010-09-18, 7:13
Gender: male
Location: The South
Country: GB United Kingdom (United Kingdom)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Wishful Learner » 2013-09-04, 8:05

JackFrost wrote:
Wishful Learner wrote:is a little unfair.

So was how the Union was formed. The Welsh and Irish mostly certainly did not join it voluntarily. But that's another story.

What I meant by is dickblocking them, which is fortunately not the case. Sorry for a poor choice of word.


That's true, and Northern Ireland is definitely another story (although one could argue that NI did want to be in the Union, since the largest Unionist support was found in Ulster when Britain and Ireland went to war), but I think the current solution of devolved parliaments is a big step in the right direction, and I think that that is a viable solution whilst they can still enjoy the benefits of the Union (I also think England should get a parliament as well, but that's another argument).

I think Westminster technically can just block any referendum decision because the Scottish Parliament can be disbanded at the whim of Westminster, but it won't. Besides, if Scotland do leave, it would give the Conservatives a huge electoral boost because the Labour Party normally sweep the board in Scottish constituencies and would be a huge stumbling block for re-election.
Native | Pas mal, nicht schlecht, no es malo | mi piace | Het is goed, niet waar? | わかりません | 我 是 英国人。| שלום, נעים מאוד | Quero...

Pawb at y peth y bo

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23326
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby linguoboy » 2013-09-04, 18:02

The division of property is going to be a major sticking point. It always is. My father, who occasionally worked as a divorce lawyer, used to say, "Each half of the couple just wants a reasonable share, which is about 90%."
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

Halfdan
Posts: 773
Joined: 2012-12-22, 5:41
Gender: male
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Halfdan » 2013-09-04, 18:54

linguoboy wrote:The division of property is going to be a major sticking point.


Indeed. If Scotland gets its independance, it'll be interesting to see how the division of property pans out.

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5393
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Saim » 2013-09-06, 11:58

Lur wrote:I hope they don't do a "we're not British" like some here do.

When a Catalan or Basque nationalist says "I'm not Spanish", they (almost always) don't mean "I'm not politically or geographically Spanish", which would be objectively incorrect. What they mean that they're not nationally Spanish in the sense that citizenship =/= nationality and they're as geographically Spanish as the Portuguese. They consider that the Castilian-speaking areas of Spain have appropriated the term "Spain" to refer to their culture, and they prefer to promote their national name rather than trying to fit their identity within the broader term which is generally exclusive and Castilocentric.

In the UK this isn't as much of an issue because:
-all four constituent countries have international projection ("what is Scotland" is not as common a sentence as "what is Catalonia?")
-the only places in the UK where there are a substantial proportion of people who identify as British before a member of a particular constituent nationality are London and Northern Ireland (the latter of which is more polarized and probably has more people that will say "I'm not British" than in Scotland or Wales, and geographically it's true), so the "British" term is not monopolized by any particular ethnic group

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7579
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby md0 » 2013-09-06, 12:08

From what I have read, it's basically South England vs the rest of UK. It's a big divide. Northern English would go with Scotland should that were possible.

Well, as long as both the UK and the Republic of Scotland remain in EU, I don't thing anything will really change on an international level.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)Elementary Finnish (fi)
For fun: Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)

User avatar
Wishful Learner
Posts: 1000
Joined: 2010-09-18, 7:13
Gender: male
Location: The South
Country: GB United Kingdom (United Kingdom)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Wishful Learner » 2013-09-06, 18:26

meidei wrote:From what I have read, it's basically South England vs the rest of UK. It's a big divide. Northern English would go with Scotland should that were possible.

Well, as long as both the UK and the Republic of Scotland remain in EU, I don't thing anything will really change on an international level.


You could even go as far as to say it's London vs the rest of the UK. For a long time it's been quite London-centric, with people commuting to London and the surrounding area to get to work instead of going closer to home. However, I agree that the South flourished under Thatcher through the growth of IT and the service industry, whereas the traditional hard-labour, industrial cities and areas of the North and of Wales suffered profoundly as the unions collapsed, nationalised businesses were privatised, poverty became rife, and we found out that New Zealand coal was cheaper than our own to use. However, much more recently, there has been more money that has been pumped into trying to rejuvenate the North and give it as much opportunity as the South; Manchester has been substantially invested in after the 2002 Commonwealth Games, and the BBC recently moved from London to their new HQ just outside Manchester. Despite this, the North is generally seen as significantly poorer than the South even today.

It's still two different cultures - Southern England definitely has a different culture than Northern England, but I would certainly not go as far as to say that they would join with Scotland in independence, it certainly hasn't been portrayed in the media, and acquaintances I have up there have certainly not been up in arms about independence. Having said that, I'm a Southerner, so I guess I haven't been up there to notice. I think it's like this in every nation, that the culture is different in certain parts of the land, that's the effect of distance, I suppose.
Native | Pas mal, nicht schlecht, no es malo | mi piace | Het is goed, niet waar? | わかりません | 我 是 英国人。| שלום, נעים מאוד | Quero...

Pawb at y peth y bo

User avatar
Lur
Posts: 3052
Joined: 2012-04-15, 23:22
Location: Madrid
Country: ES Spain (España)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Lur » 2013-09-06, 21:07

Saim wrote:
Lur wrote:I hope they don't do a "we're not British" like some here do.

When a Catalan or Basque nationalist says "I'm not Spanish", they (almost always) don't mean "I'm not politically or geographically Spanish", which would be objectively incorrect. What they mean that they're not nationally Spanish in the sense that citizenship =/= nationality and they're as geographically Spanish as the Portuguese. They consider that the Castilian-speaking areas of Spain have appropriated the term "Spain" to refer to their culture, and they prefer to promote their national name rather than trying to fit their identity within the broader term which is generally exclusive and Castilocentric.

I normally understand the Basque Ez gará espániák to mean Ez gará errómatarrák, basically. It's their way of expressing it.
Geurea dena lapurtzen uzteagatik, geure izaerari uko egiteagatik.

User avatar
Marah
Posts: 3015
Joined: 2011-06-03, 17:01
Real Name: Jonathan
Gender: male
Country: FR France (France)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Marah » 2013-09-07, 6:15

What does that mean?
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5393
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Saim » 2013-09-07, 10:10

Given the context and the cognates I assume it means I'm not Spanish and I'm not Roman.

User avatar
Lauren
Posts: 3581
Joined: 2012-04-09, 7:50
Real Name: Lauren
Gender: female
Location: Seattle, WA
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Lauren » 2013-09-07, 10:12

"We're not..." :)
Native:            (en-US)
Advanced:       (eu)
Just started:    (cs)
Trans woman  Image

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2228
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Yasna » 2013-09-07, 15:05

I think it would be terrible for Great Britain but I welcome it to further dilute the power of Britain to meddle abroad.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
Wishful Learner
Posts: 1000
Joined: 2010-09-18, 7:13
Gender: male
Location: The South
Country: GB United Kingdom (United Kingdom)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Wishful Learner » 2013-09-07, 15:19

Yasna wrote:I think it would be terrible for Great Britain but I welcome it to further dilute the power of Britain to meddle abroad.


In which case, would you welcome a partition of America, and France, and Germany, and China, and Russia in order to dilute their own foreign influence?
Native | Pas mal, nicht schlecht, no es malo | mi piace | Het is goed, niet waar? | わかりません | 我 是 英国人。| שלום, נעים מאוד | Quero...

Pawb at y peth y bo

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2228
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Yasna » 2013-09-07, 20:35

Well, I guess that was a little mean-spirited. Let's say I wouldn't wish it on Britain, but if it came to pass, I'd be happy that as a result of it, Britain's power to meddle abroad would be diluted.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
Wishful Learner
Posts: 1000
Joined: 2010-09-18, 7:13
Gender: male
Location: The South
Country: GB United Kingdom (United Kingdom)

Re: Scottish independance

Postby Wishful Learner » 2013-09-07, 21:53

Yasna wrote:Well, I guess that was a little mean-spirited. Let's say I wouldn't wish it on Britain, but if it came to pass, I'd be happy that as a result of it, Britain's power to meddle abroad would be diluted.


You didn't answer my question though; would you also welcome other countries being split up, such as America and Russia, to curb their own foreign influence?
Native | Pas mal, nicht schlecht, no es malo | mi piace | Het is goed, niet waar? | わかりません | 我 是 英国人。| שלום, נעים מאוד | Quero...

Pawb at y peth y bo


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: vijayjohn and 1 guest