Redrawing borders

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Marah
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Marah » 2013-08-21, 7:06

linguoboy wrote:No they didn't; only the New Territories were leased, not the entire colony. The return of Hong Kong Island and Kowloon was painstakingly negotiated and would not have happened if the British Government hadn't been convinced that the rights of native Hong Kongers would be respected. So even though they weren't directly consulted, protection of their interests was central to the process.

Well, that's true, but China was also slightly more daunting than Spain is.

A government which can't fairly obtain the consent of the governed is illegitimate. This is true regardless of the length of time they hold the territory. In most cases where there's been widespread resistance to the imposition of a new regime, the detractors have been proved right. How many counterexamples can you think of?

Like South Vietnam?
Anyway, Gibraltar is a tax-haven, and regardless of this UK-Spain issue, it should change. Sure, it's good for the local economy (that's why they're so hell-bent on letting the things be the way they are) but on a larger scale it's not for the countries' economies.
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-21, 12:44

HoItalosPhilellên wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Oh, the irony.

How so, exactly? Please point it all out to me.

How much do you know about the pack of lies which is taught as "our history" in Greek schools?

Marah wrote:
linguoboy wrote:How many counterexamples can you think of?

Like South Vietnam?

Very good; there's one.

Marah wrote:Anyway, Gibraltar is a tax-haven, and regardless of this UK-Spain issue, it should change.

Tax-havens are an international issue. Manhandling Gibraltar is not going to get the Channel Islands or Man to suddenly change their tune, is it? There needs to be a more comprehensive solution.

Unlike the rest, though, Gibraltar is a tax haven which also directly benefits Spain.
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Marah » 2013-08-21, 13:07

linguoboy wrote:Tax-havens are an international issue. Manhandling Gibraltar is not going to get the Channel Islands or Man to suddenly change their tune, is it? There needs to be a more comprehensive solution.

Unlike the rest, though, Gibraltar is a tax haven which also directly benefits Spain.

Sure, it won't, but you have to start somewhere anyway.

Also, it certainly benefits the villages around Gibraltar that belong to Spain but all the companies going there to pay less taxes, that doesn't really benefit Spain or the UK on the big picture.

linguoboy wrote:Very good; there's one

I was also thinking of the boers in South Africa, or Karelia.
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Lur » 2013-08-21, 13:11

Why are we still going on about Gibraltar?

Here's the thing about it: the flora, fauna, and that the Gibraltar authorities are damaging environments used traditionally by Spanish fishers and ilegally importing sand from Spanish protected dunes.

But that's it. Other than that, it's one of the themes the government love to bring up so people will pay less attention to what's actually going on,

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-21, 15:11

Marah wrote:Sure, it won't, but you have to start somewhere anyway.

If only they'd started with Cyprus, they'd be in much less of a mess now. But why pick an important but difficult target when there's a minor but far more convenient one handy?

Lur wrote:Why are we still going on about Gibraltar?

Funny, that's just what I'd like to ask Ignacio Ibañez.

Lur wrote:Here's the thing about it: the flora, fauna, and that the Gibraltar authorities are damaging environments used traditionally by Spanish fishers and ilegally importing sand from Spanish protected dunes.

Wow, the Spanish must really care about protecting the Andalusian coastline!

As you say, it's essentially a manufactured dispute. The people of Spain have been fed on such a steady diet of territorial nationalism by governments desperate to maintain their legitimacy that I almost wouldn't blame them for their uncompromising stance on Gibraltar if not for their blatant disregard of popular sovereignty.

So where's the popular cry to annex Andorra?
Last edited by linguoboy on 2013-08-21, 15:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-21, 15:13

linguoboy wrote:What does everybody have against multilingual states
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_de_lib%C3%A9ration_du_Qu%C3%A9bec
Levente.Maier wrote:But this time only the countries that speak Serbo-Croatian
Unless I'm mistaken, those were the ones who tore the country apart in the first place.
Lur wrote:Here's the thing about it: the flora, fauna, and that the Gibraltar authorities are damaging environments used traditionally by Spanish fishers and ilegally importing sand from Spanish protected dunes.
OH NO NOT THE DUNES

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-21, 15:18

mōdgethanc wrote:
linguoboy wrote:What does everybody have against multilingual states
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_de_lib%C3%A9ration_du_Qu%C3%A9bec

Câlisse, eight fatalities in their bloody seven-year campaign! Just imagine what the body count might've been like in Northern Ireland if both sides didn't share a common language!
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-21, 15:27

Yasna wrote:Those tiny territories become huge strategic liabilities for the country sitting next to them if it at some point has less than amicable relations with the distant country in control of the tiny territory. It's a big strategic error to tolerate them unless it's absolutely necessary.
Frankly, I don't care about Argentina's strategic position. The people want to remain with the UK, and Argentina isn't about to attack the UK over a bunch of rocks in the south Atlantic, so leave the status quo as it is.
Because a union would be stronger.
We already have one. It's called NATO.
HoItalosPhilellên wrote:1. Liberate West Bank and Gaza from Israeli tyranny for an independent Palestine.
So they can live under Palestinian tyranny. Great!
2. Revoke Treaty of Lausanne and return Eastern Thrace, Constantinople, and Smyrna to Greece.
LOL
16. Taiwan annex PRC.
Now that's the only reasonable idea you've had yet.
Last edited by mōdgethanc on 2013-08-21, 15:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2013-08-21, 15:39

mōdgethanc wrote:
LOL16. Taiwan annex PRC.
Now that's the only reasonable idea you've had yet.

Lol. A billion people says no.

mōdgethanc wrote:
2. Revoke Treaty of Lausanne and return Eastern Thrace, Constantinople, and Smyrna to Greece.
LOL


If there is anything good that Greece and Turkey did in the 20th century it's the Treaty of Lausanne and the population transfer. I would say that they should have had another Treaty of Lausanne after the Cyprus war. Have all Greeks in Greece and all Turks in Turkey. With no possibilities for ethnic conflict, the hostilities will fade away eventually.

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Yasna » 2013-08-21, 15:48

mōdgethanc wrote:Argentina isn't about to attack the UK over a bunch of rocks in the south Atlantic

I'd bet a hundred dollars that Argentina will make another attempt at the Falklands by mid-century.
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-21, 16:08

Lol. A billion people says no.
Don't be silly. Chinese has no word for no.

All kidding aside, how do you know all those people want to live under the PRC instead of the ROC? The last election results?
If there is anything good that Greece and Turkey did in the 20th century it's the Treaty of Lausanne and the population transfer. I would say that they should have had another Treaty of Lausanne after the Cyprus war. Have all Greeks in Greece and all Turks in Turkey. With no possibilities for ethnic conflict, the hostilities will fade away eventually.
So who's going to live in Cyprus then? The goats?
Yasna wrote:I'd bet a hundred dollars that Argentina will make another attempt at the Falklands by mid-century.
And I'd double your bet and say the UK will kick their asses again, because they're irrationally obsessed with these stupid islands which they have no chance of getting back.

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Marah » 2013-08-21, 16:13

modgethanc wrote:So they can live under Palestinian tyranny. Great!


I'm talking about the wishes of people who already live somewhere and whose ancestors have for hundreds of years, not about people who are settling somewhere new and claiming the land for themselves.


Doesn't it apply there as well?
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-21, 16:15

If Palestine wants independence, they can have it. I doubt they'll be any better off than they are now, but it's all symbolic, isn't it?

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2013-08-21, 16:22

mōdgethanc wrote:
If there is anything good that Greece and Turkey did in the 20th century it's the Treaty of Lausanne and the population transfer. I would say that they should have had another Treaty of Lausanne after the Cyprus war. Have all Greeks in Greece and all Turks in Turkey. With no possibilities for ethnic conflict, the hostilities will fade away eventually.
So who's going to live in Cyprus then? The goats?

On the divided island of Cyprus there would be Greeks living in Greece and Turks in Turkey.

Or I might redesign my plan according to your suggestion and have the Cypriot Greeks living in the Republic of South Cyprus and the Cypriot Turks in the Republic of North Cyprus. For tax purposes.

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-21, 16:39

My opinion may be heavily informed by the history of ethnic relations in my home country, but I'm really sceptical about indefinite enforced segregation as a recipe for increasing tolerance. It makes sense to separate populations during a hot conflict in order to save lives, but in the long term people need to learn how to all get along. I think failing to make reunification of Cyprus a precondition for EU accession was a colossal blunder.
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Yasna » 2013-08-21, 17:30

mōdgethanc wrote:And I'd double your bet and say the UK will kick their asses again, because they're irrationally obsessed with these stupid islands which they have no chance of getting back.

If Argentina invests in anti-access and area denial capabilities over the coming decades, they have every chance in the world of winning that conflict. The tyranny of distance can be unforgiving.

linguoboy wrote:I think failing to make reunification of Cyprus a precondition for EU accession was a colossal blunder.

Agreed.
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-21, 17:34

Yasna wrote:If Argentina invests in anti-access and area denial capabilities over the coming decades, they have every chance in the world of winning that conflict. The tyranny of distance can be unforgiving.
If Argentina takes back the Falklands before I'm 50, I'll buy you a Coke.

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2013-08-21, 17:43

linguoboy wrote:My opinion may be heavily informed by the history of ethnic relations in my home country, but I'm really sceptical about indefinite enforced segregation as a recipe for increasing tolerance. It makes sense to separate populations during a hot conflict in order to save lives, but in the long term people need to learn how to all get along. I think failing to make reunification of Cyprus a precondition for EU accession was a colossal blunder.

Once bitten, twice shy. I'm sceptical about multiethnic states with a history of serious ethnic conflicts.

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-08-21, 17:49

linguoboy wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:Have no fear: I did the necessary Googling all by myself. Now, if 5.4% of people in Flanders go to church on a regular basis, and the country has been secular by law since it was founded, I don't think Belgians identify too strongly as a Catholic country. That leaves language, and though I'm far from an expert on Belgian politics I'd bet my bottom dollar that if push came to shove the Flemish and Walloons would rather be forced to live with their fellow Dutch and French speakers than with each other. (Especially the Flemish!)

But there's more to ethnic identity than simply language and religion. Shared history and political development figure into it, too. Because if that's your argument, why doesn't English Canada simply let its Frenchies go and join the USA? Your country is even younger than Belgium after all.


You two seem to forget that catholicism is the biggest religion in the Netherlands: even though our king is from a calvinist house, there are more catholics (and even more people without a religion, but okay). Brabant and Limburg in the Netherlands have always been catholic, there have been a lot of catholic villages in the rest of the Netherlands and they got more children, that's why there are more catholics. But in Belgium the situation is slightly different because there the whole country is catholic (apart from the people without a religion, again).
Yes, shared history! Well, Brabant in the Netherlands and Brabant in Belgium have a huge shared history together, so that's a nice argument :)



[edit] Your map would make me into the interesting situation of living in one country and working in another, by the way :lol:
Interests: lots.
Motivation: little.

Corrections appreciated.

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby gomen » 2013-08-21, 18:02

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Or I might redesign my plan according to your suggestion and have the Cypriot Greeks living in the Republic of South Cyprus and the Cypriot Turks in the Republic of North Cyprus. For tax purposes.

Two states are needed, but for stability's sake the two Cypriot states should be interdependent and distanced from both Turkey and Greece. For one, Greek Cypriots don't like Greece's political system (who would want to be Greece's most faraway island? Even Crete is neglected by the Greek state and it's bigger and more close to Greece), and Turkish Cypriots absolutely loathe being a puppet to Turkey's political system and they want to have their own economy (and consequently, sovereignty), as evident by the last 5 years of protests, and captured in the result of their last elections.
But still, Greek Cypriots are not willing to accept Turkish Cypriots as anything else but a minority, while Turkish Cypriots want self-governance. So a Confederation is the only reunification plan that it's going to work. Now try and sell it to Greek Cypriots which still dream of "the right to return".

On a humorous note, that's how I'd like to see the island:

Image


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