Redrawing borders

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Limagne
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Limagne » 2013-08-20, 19:04

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:I'd restore the Benelux and make one country of the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg :)


What about recreating Lotharingia ?

:P

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Marah
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Marah » 2013-08-20, 19:05

linguoboy wrote:Does Hong Kong "play by the same rules economically" as the rest of China?


No, but they had to give it away anyway, their 99-year lease had expired.
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-20, 19:19

Marah wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Does Hong Kong "play by the same rules economically" as the rest of China?

No, but they had to give it away anyway, their 99-year lease had expired.

No they didn't; only the New Territories were leased, not the entire colony. The return of Hong Kong Island and Kowloon was painstakingly negotiated and would not have happened if the British Government hadn't been convinced that the rights of native Hong Kongers would be respected. So even though they weren't directly consulted, protection of their interests was central to the process.

The larger point is that accommodations are possible when both sides are willing to be flexible. But going in and demanding something as your birthright without offering much if anything in the way of concessions is guaranteed to alienate the local populace and destroy their faith in your ability to govern them justly.

A government which can't fairly obtain the consent of the governed is illegitimate. This is true regardless of the length of time they hold the territory. In most cases where there's been widespread resistance to the imposition of a new regime, the detractors have been proved right. How many counterexamples can you think of?
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Hoogstwaarschijnlijk
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-08-20, 19:28

Limagne wrote:
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:I'd restore the Benelux and make one country of the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg :)


What about recreating Lotharingia ?

:P

No thanks.

:wink:

Or maybe Fryslân can be a country of its own, Limburg can go to Germany, Wallonia can go to France and then the rest of Flandern and the Netherlands can become a new country. That would be kind of nice, I think :)


[edit] Oh, and I agree about the Mount Ararat thing modge mentioned.
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-20, 19:52

I had the same idea about splitting Belgium and giving half to France and half to the Netherlands. If they don't want to live together, why force them to?

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-20, 19:56

mōdgethanc wrote:I had the same idea about splitting Belgium and giving half to France and half to the Netherlands. If they don't want to live together, why force them to?

By the same token, why force them to live with others based solely on linguistic criteria? There was a reason why the country came into existence in the first place.

If Benelux were still a going concern, I could see it being a vehicle for a form of Helvetian federalism. But the last thing the EU needs these days is more sovereign states in its makeup.
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-20, 19:58

linguoboy wrote:By the same token, why force them to live with others based solely on linguistic criteria? There was a reason why the country came into existence in the first place.

In 1830, the Belgian Revolution led to the separation of the Southern Provinces from the Netherlands and to the establishment of a Catholic and bourgeois, officially French-speaking and neutral, independent Belgium under a provisional government and a national congress.[19][20] Since the installation of Leopold I as king on 21 July 1831 (which is now celebrated as Belgium's National Day[21]), Belgium has been a constitutional monarchy and parliamentary democracy, with a laicist constitution based on the Napoleonic code.

Sounds to me like they would've been happier with France than with the Netherlands. Nowadays, though, I doubt being Catholic and French-speaking is all that important to the average Flemish person.

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-20, 20:02

mōdgethanc wrote:
linguoboy wrote:By the same token, why force them to live with others based solely on linguistic criteria? There was a reason why the country came into existence in the first place.
Which was what?

I know you think it's rude to reply to a question with a bare link to a Wikipedia article, so I'll resist the urge to respond "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Revolution".

There is an 'Orangist' faction in modern Flanders which supports confederation or union with the Netherlands, but their numbers are pretty small. And I haven't a clue how many Netherlanders would even support such an idea.
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-20, 20:09

Have no fear: I did the necessary Googling all by myself. Now, if 5.4% of people in Flanders go to church on a regular basis, and the country has been secular by law since it was founded, I don't think Belgians identify too strongly as a Catholic country. That leaves language, and though I'm far from an expert on Belgian politics I'd bet my bottom dollar that if push came to shove the Flemish and Walloons would rather be forced to live with their fellow Dutch and French speakers than with each other. (Especially the Flemish!)

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-20, 20:13

mōdgethanc wrote:Have no fear: I did the necessary Googling all by myself. Now, if 5.4% of people in Flanders go to church on a regular basis, and the country has been secular by law since it was founded, I don't think Belgians identify too strongly as a Catholic country. That leaves language, and though I'm far from an expert on Belgian politics I'd bet my bottom dollar that if push came to shove the Flemish and Walloons would rather be forced to live with their fellow Dutch and French speakers than with each other. (Especially the Flemish!)

But there's more to ethnic identity than simply language and religion. Shared history and political development figure into it, too. Because if that's your argument, why doesn't English Canada simply let its Frenchies go and join the USA? Your country is even younger than Belgium after all.
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Levike » 2013-08-20, 20:13

This is what I would do:

1. Macedonia to Bulgaria

2. Moldova to Romania

3. Kosovo to Albania

4. Half of Belgium to France, half to the Netherlands

5. Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia form one country

6. Switzerland to Germany, France and Italy

7. Ireland to the UK

8. Austria to Germany

9. Corsica to Italy

10. We don't need countries like San Marino or Monaco or Lichtenstein
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-20, 20:20

Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia form one country
They already tried that. It didn't end well.
why doesn't English Canada simply let its Frenchies go and join the USA?
Why on earth would they ever want to do that? You would make a stronger case by saying "why doesn't English-speaking Canada just join the USA?" since the differences there are more imagined than real.

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-20, 20:22

What does everybody have against multilingual states on the one hand and quirky foreign enclaves on the other? As a fan of languages, these are the most interesting places to me. I love Gibraltarian code-switching, the robustness of dialect in Switzerland, the absurdity of three different standards for the same mess of South Slavic speech varieties. Without Luxembourg there'd be no Lëtzebuergesch and Andorra may seem useless now but it was the lifeblood of Catalan publishing during the years of Francoist repression.

19th-century nationalism has lingered long past its sell-by date; the nation-state is played out. State-level actors should be constituted on the basis of common interest. And while common ethnic identity (based, in part, on linguistic affiliation) naturally plays some part in forming bounds of common interest, it's far from the be-all end-all it's often treated as.

modget wrote:You would make a stronger case by saying "why doesn't English-speaking Canada just join the USA?" since the differences there are more imagined than real.

That is what I'm saying. You misparsed the coordination of clauses.
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Levike » 2013-08-20, 20:36

mōdgethanc wrote:
Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia form one country
They already tried that. It didn't end well.
But this time only the countries that speak Serbo-Croatian
without Slovenia, Kosovo and Macedonia.
It would be fun to try. 8-)
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Marah » 2013-08-20, 20:40

According to some polls I've seen, Wallonia doesn't want to be part of France. Also, I agree with linguoboy.
Why always this "one language, one country"? Switzerland or Belgium wouldn't be as charming.
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Levike » 2013-08-20, 20:44

I like multilingual countries.
The only problem comes when one language starts to dominate.
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Marah » 2013-08-20, 20:46

So why do you want to tear Switzerland apart?
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-20, 20:58

Here's the sort of thing I'd do if I were dictator:

Image

Instead of a few massive states dominating their smaller neighbours, what you have here is a union of polities more or less equal in population and economic strength (albeit not in territory). Any kind of legal change affecting the entire federation will still take a majority of member states, but the results will be less distorted by large blocs. As it is now, if Brandenburg and Bavaria hate a change but the rest of Germany is in favour, their opposition counts for little. But with power more evenly distributed, they could form a coalition with, say, Noricum, Umbria, Mercia, Portugal, and a few others to defend their interests.
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Michael » 2013-08-20, 21:02

1. Liberate West Bank and Gaza from Israeli tyranny for an independent Palestine.
2. Revoke Treaty of Lausanne and return Eastern Thrace, Constantinople, and Smyrna to Greece.
3. Either Serbia or Bulgaria can annex FYROM.
4. Armenia take back all its former territory from Turkey.
5. Kurdistan officially break away from Turkey and Iraq.
6. Unite all of the Central American countries (except Mexico, may that happen to fall under your definition of a Central American nation) to form Central American Federation.
7. Unite Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, and Bolivia to form Bolivian Republic, in honor of Simón Bolívar.
8. Unite Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, and Falkland Islands.
9. Unite Suriname, Guyana, and French Guyana to form one Guyana.
10. Unite all of the -stans of Central Asia.
11. Serbia annex Montenegro.
12. Albania annex Kosovo.
13. Galicia, Asturias, Catalonia, Valencia, and Euskera-speaking territories break away from Castile.
14. Independent Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, and Isle of Man.
15. Return Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland.
16. Taiwan annex PRC.
Last edited by Michael on 2013-08-20, 21:10, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Levike » 2013-08-20, 21:04

Marah wrote:So why do you want to tear Switzerland apart?

I like multilingual states but I still prefer the "one language one country thing".
Plus I'm in favour of bigger countries.
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