Redrawing borders

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!

Moderators: Global Moderators, Forum Administrators

Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
Ludwig Whitby
Posts: 3665
Joined: 2009-03-30, 13:44
Gender: male
Location: Belgrade
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2013-08-23, 14:07

gomen wrote:
Well of course. Greece and Turkey were not only neighbours, but best friends in the period from 1923 to WWII. hat made them enemies again was Cyprus and ethnic minorities that were left behind


Where did you get that? :shock: Greece and Turkey only (kinda) normalised their diplomatic relations in the 1990s.

It was all the way to the 1950s that two countries enjoyed good relations. Source:
http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/14/en/1923_19 ... ns/06.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Pact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Kurtulu%C5%9F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Pact_(1953)

language learner
Posts: 634
Joined: 2011-10-15, 18:41
Gender: male

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby language learner » 2013-08-23, 18:10

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Well of course. Greece and Turkey were not only neighbours, but best friends in the period from 1923 to WWII. What made them enemies again was Cyprus and ethnic minorities that were left behind, not being a part of the Lausanne treaty (like the Greeks of Istanbul who suffered a pogrom in the 1950s and eventually emigrated fearing for their lives). Mostly Cyprus, though.

With no issues remaining, nations forget their hostilities. My prime example for that is Bulgaria. Serbia and Bulgaria were in wars (not counting the Medieval period) in 1885, 1913, WWI and WWII. The issues were among others the territories of modern Southern Serbia and Republic of Macedonia. After WWII Macedonia was no longer Serbian and the people living in Southern Serbia (that Bulgaria had considered to be Bulgarians) were fully serbianized. With no unresolved issues remaining the two nations started living in peace as good neighbours. This could of course still change if people such as the guy that posted the Great Bulgaria map begin to seriously consider expansion. But I am sure that that is only harmless nationalistic daydreaming.

It isn't. There are Bulgarian minorities in all neighbouring countries, and those have suffered greatly and still suffer from that that they're in another country. There has been much tortures, ethnic cleansing and mistreatment and there still is, comfortably not turned attention to by the media.
The ethnic cleansing has been done to such a big extent that from majority they are now minority.

Ludwig Whitby
Posts: 3665
Joined: 2009-03-30, 13:44
Gender: male
Location: Belgrade
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2013-08-23, 18:41


User avatar
Johanna
Forum Administrator
Posts: 6298
Joined: 2006-09-17, 18:05
Real Name: Johanna
Gender: female
Location: Lidköping, Westrogothia
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Johanna » 2013-08-23, 20:24

Ludwig, but when it happens to Serbs in places like Kosovo it's an insult to the entire Serbian nation for some reason.
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

User avatar
Babelfish
Posts: 4444
Joined: 2005-07-21, 12:00
Gender: male
Location: רחובות
Country: IL Israel (ישראל / إسرائيل)
Contact:

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Babelfish » 2013-08-23, 20:28

HoItalosPhilellên wrote:1. Liberate West Bank and Gaza from Israeli tyranny for an independent Palestine.
:roll: Newsflash (from 2006): Israel pulled out of Gaza, including its border with Egypt. The tyranny there now is Hamas tyranny.
Native languages: Hebrew (he) & English (en)
My language pages: http://babelfish.50webs.com/

מן המקום בו אנו צודקים לא יפרחו לעולם פרחים באביב (יהודה עמיחי)
From the place where we are in the right, flowers will never grow in the spring (Yhuda Amihay)

User avatar
Johanna
Forum Administrator
Posts: 6298
Joined: 2006-09-17, 18:05
Real Name: Johanna
Gender: female
Location: Lidköping, Westrogothia
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Johanna » 2013-08-23, 20:45

Babelfish wrote:
HoItalosPhilellên wrote:1. Liberate West Bank and Gaza from Israeli tyranny for an independent Palestine.
:roll: Newsflash (from 2006): Israel pulled out of Gaza, including its border with Egypt. The tyranny there now is Hamas tyranny.

Isn't Israel still keeping Gaza under quarantine though? Like keeping ships from entering its ports?

There was this action a couple of years back, Ship to Gaza, which was about humanitarian aid according to those who arranged it. But Israel stopped the ships and detained the crews. Sure, some of those ships might have tried to slip weapons to Gaza, but the Israeli authorities detained (and later deported) everyone, no matter what they found.
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

Ludwig Whitby
Posts: 3665
Joined: 2009-03-30, 13:44
Gender: male
Location: Belgrade
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2013-08-23, 21:13

Johanna wrote:Ludwig, but when it happens to Serbs in places like Kosovo it's an insult to the entire Serbian nation for some reason.

I'm not really sure what this is supposed to mean.

User avatar
Johanna
Forum Administrator
Posts: 6298
Joined: 2006-09-17, 18:05
Real Name: Johanna
Gender: female
Location: Lidköping, Westrogothia
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Johanna » 2013-08-23, 21:29

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Johanna wrote:Ludwig, but when it happens to Serbs in places like Kosovo it's an insult to the entire Serbian nation for some reason.

I'm not really sure what this is supposed to mean.

Just that Serbs in general don't care about them oppressing others, but that when there's a hint of Serbs being oppressed...
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

Ludwig Whitby
Posts: 3665
Joined: 2009-03-30, 13:44
Gender: male
Location: Belgrade
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2013-08-23, 21:47

Johanna wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Johanna wrote:Ludwig, but when it happens to Serbs in places like Kosovo it's an insult to the entire Serbian nation for some reason.

I'm not really sure what this is supposed to mean.

Just that Serbs in general don't care about them oppressing others, but that when there's a hint of Serbs being oppressed...

Do you think that that trait is intrinsically Serbian?

User avatar
Johanna
Forum Administrator
Posts: 6298
Joined: 2006-09-17, 18:05
Real Name: Johanna
Gender: female
Location: Lidköping, Westrogothia
Country: SE Sweden (Sverige)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Johanna » 2013-08-24, 4:58

Ludwig Whitby wrote:Do you think that that trait is intrinsically Serbian?

Nope, I can see it here too, although a bit less obvious (our leaders wouldn't get away with actual ethnic cleansing, but selling out Sami land to foreign mining companies is still OK).
Swedish (sv) native; English (en) good; Norwegian (no) read fluently, understand well, speak badly; Danish (dk) read fluently, understand badly, can't speak; Faroese (fo) read some, understand a bit, speak a few sentences; German (de) French (fr) Spanish (es) forgetting; heritage language, want to understand and speak but can't.

Ludwig Whitby
Posts: 3665
Joined: 2009-03-30, 13:44
Gender: male
Location: Belgrade
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2013-08-24, 11:18

Johanna wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:Do you think that that trait is intrinsically Serbian?

Nope, I can see it here too, although a bit less obvious (our leaders wouldn't get away with actual ethnic cleansing, but selling out Sami land to foreign mining companies is still OK).

So what's with pointing out Serbs? I found it really annoying and ironic that after a post of a Bulgarian who laments on the treatment that his people received in their neighbouring countries and saying that is reason enough for his country to invade them and annex some of their territory you would bash on Serbs.

Firstly, I would really like to see the source that says that Serbs conducted ethnic cleansing on Bulgarians. All Serbs did was assimilation of the people of Southern Serbia, that mostly did consider themselvs Bulgarian, but had no strong national feeling which is proven by the fact that it took them only a few years to change their mind and become Serbs. They were living in the Ottoman empire and hadn't felt the wave of nationalism before Serbs arrived and Serbia took advantage of that. Oh, Serbia took Macedonia as well and what Serbia did in Macedonia was a mistake (as much you would like that, still no ethnic cleansing), but they're not Bulgarians, they're Macedonians.

Secondly, don't you know what Bulgarians have been doing to Romas? Turks? Pomaks? What did they do to the people in neighbouring countries they invaded in WWI and WWII? Couldn't you have said that Bulgarians in general don't care about them oppressing others, but that when there's a hint of Bulgarians being oppressed?

Thirdly, you do know that his line of thinking is exactly the same as the one that lead to this idea? Doesn't that bother you? Is it only Serbs (and apparently Israelis) that you have a problem with?

User avatar
Varislintu
Posts: 15297
Joined: 2004-02-09, 13:32
Real Name: M.
Gender: female
Location: Helsinki
Country: FI Finland (Suomi)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Varislintu » 2013-08-24, 14:16

Finland could get some of Karelia back so that the houses could be repaired, the fields properly drained, and we could stop donating clothes and toys to the orphanages there and just directly fund them properly. :twisted:
Det finns ingen
tröst. Därför
behöver du den inte
(Gösta Ågren)

language learner
Posts: 634
Joined: 2011-10-15, 18:41
Gender: male

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby language learner » 2013-08-24, 14:30

Ludwig Whitby wrote:
Johanna wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:Do you think that that trait is intrinsically Serbian?

Nope, I can see it here too, although a bit less obvious (our leaders wouldn't get away with actual ethnic cleansing, but selling out Sami land to foreign mining companies is still OK).

So what's with pointing out Serbs? I found it really annoying and ironic that after a post of a Bulgarian who laments on the treatment that his people received in their neighbouring countries and saying that is reason enough for his country to invade them and annex some of their territory you would bash on Serbs.
Please would you go back to the opening post and read what the thread is about in the first place?
When did I said anything about invasion? And why didn't you react at all to the Cyprus sunk or nuked thing? Double standards much.
The time of wars is over, now we should rather act with political means to stop the oppresion. If he had politicians, of course.

Firstly, I would really like to see the source that says that Serbs conducted ethnic cleansing on Bulgarians.
Do you know about Vlado Chernozemski, or more importantly, why did he join IMRO?


Secondly, don't you know what Bulgarians have been doing to Romas? Turks? Pomaks?

What did we do to Romas? We have never been strict towards them and this is a mistake.
The closest thing we did to ethnic cleansing to Turks living in our territory I can think of was changing of personal names and that didn't last long.
As for Pomaks, they are Bulgarians, why do you even mention them?
I'm not saying there were no oppresions in our country; however they were in totalitarian times and were equally as harsh towards everyone except for the ruling class.

What did they do to the people in neighbouring countries they invaded in WWI and WWII?
They returned them their homeland. Back then we were still a majority.

Thirdly, you do know that his line of thinking is exactly the same as the one that lead to this idea?
I'm not willing to be concerned with the internal issues of Serbs and Croats as long as they are not in harm of Bulgarians.

Ludwig Whitby
Posts: 3665
Joined: 2009-03-30, 13:44
Gender: male
Location: Belgrade
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2013-08-24, 15:03

азъбукывѣдѣ wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:This could of course still change if people such as the guy that posted the Great Bulgaria map begin to seriously consider expansion. But I am sure that that is only harmless nationalistic daydreaming.

It isn't.

???

азъбукывѣдѣ wrote:When did I said anything about invasion? And why didn't you react at all to the Cyprus sunk or nuked thing? Double standards much.

The Cyprus-guy said he was kidding. At first I thought that you weren't that serious either, I said that your thoughts were harmless. You said that they weren't. I see no double standards.


азъбукывѣдѣ wrote:
Firstly, I would really like to see the source that says that Serbs conducted ethnic cleansing on Bulgarians.
Do you know about Vlado Chernozemski, or more importantly, why did he join IMRO?

No.

азъбукывѣдѣ wrote:
Secondly, don't you know what Bulgarians have been doing to Romas? Turks? Pomaks?

What did we do to Romas? We have never been strict towards them and this is a mistake.
The closest thing we did to ethnic cleansing to Turks living in our territory I can think of was changing of personal names and that didn't last long.
As for Pomaks, they are Bulgarians, why do you even mention them?
I'm not saying there were no oppresions in our country; however they were in totalitarian times and were equally as harsh towards everyone except for the ruling class.

http://www.refworld.org/country,,HRW,AN ... e3f,0.html
http://www.refworld.org/country,,,,BGR, ... b18,0.html
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/08/01/i ... a-bulgaria

азъбукывѣдѣ wrote:
What did they do to the people in neighbouring countries they invaded in WWI and WWII?
They returned them their homeland. Back then we were still a majority.

Even if I were to accept that, how did Bulgaria treat its minorities then?

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10370
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Real Name: Μέγας Αλέξανδρος
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-24, 16:34

Oh my god, what is it with the goddamn Balkans that makes everyone there full of nationalist feeling and hatred for their neighbours?

Just kidding!
Varislintu wrote:Finland could get some of Karelia back so that the houses could be repaired, the fields properly drained, and we could stop donating clothes and toys to the orphanages there and just directly fund them properly. :twisted:
That's one of the few sensible ideas that have been said here. I doubt Russia would miss it.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 20499
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-24, 20:17

mōdgethanc wrote:Oh my god, what is it with the goddamn Balkans that makes everyone there full of nationalist feeling and hatred for their neighbours?

Five large-scale conflicts (First and Second Balkan War, WW1 & II, Yugoslav War) just within the last century alone?
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

Ludwig Whitby
Posts: 3665
Joined: 2009-03-30, 13:44
Gender: male
Location: Belgrade
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2013-08-24, 20:58

linguoboy wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:Oh my god, what is it with the goddamn Balkans that makes everyone there full of nationalist feeling and hatred for their neighbours?

Five large-scale conflicts (First and Second Balkan War, WW1 & II, Yugoslav War) just within the last century alone?

Also, the subjectivity of history and truth. Each nation has its own view of history and according to it considers itself the innocent victim of its evil neighbours. Each nation has its own truth and the others are liars who know the truth but are such assholes that they are nonetheless deceiving the world with their dirty lies!

(This by the way isn't endemic to the Balkans. It is human nature.)

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 20499
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-24, 21:35

Ludwig Whitby wrote:(This by the way isn't endemic to the Balkans. It is human nature.)

Perhaps, but it's expressed more often and with more vitriol in the Balkans. In Western Europe, recidivism is confined to the extreme ultranationalist fringe. I never met anyone in Germany who talked about taking back Alsace or Silesia nor anyone in Spain who felt entitled to Rousillon. (Catalan nationalists may get misty-eyed about it, but almost to a person they'd be content merely to see it given autonomy, particularly in linguistic matters.)

It's different with the Balkans. Even here in the States, Orthodox Christians will go on about the Rape of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade as if it happened in living memory. Meanwhile, millions died and all of Germany was torn apart during the Wars of Religion four hundred years more recently and nobody here gives them a second thought. It's a huge difference in mindset.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
Lazar Taxon
Posts: 1570
Joined: 2007-10-07, 8:00
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2013-08-24, 21:55

You mean irredentism?
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag] Good: [flag=]es[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] Okay: [flag=]de[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Beginning: [flag=]it[/flag] Interested in: [flag=]he[/flag] [flag=]hi[/flag] [flag=]ru[/flag]

Today we are cats in the apocalypse!

Ludwig Whitby
Posts: 3665
Joined: 2009-03-30, 13:44
Gender: male
Location: Belgrade
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Redrawing borders

Postby Ludwig Whitby » 2013-08-24, 23:16

linguoboy wrote:
Ludwig Whitby wrote:(This by the way isn't endemic to the Balkans. It is human nature.)

Perhaps, but it's expressed more often and with more vitriol in the Balkans. In Western Europe, recidivism is confined to the extreme ultranationalist fringe. I never met anyone in Germany who talked about taking back Alsace or Silesia nor anyone in Spain who felt entitled to Rousillon. (Catalan nationalists may get misty-eyed about it, but almost to a person they'd be content merely to see it given autonomy, particularly in linguistic matters.)

It's different with the Balkans. Even here in the States, Orthodox Christians will go on about the Rape of Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade as if it happened in living memory. Meanwhile, millions died and all of Germany was torn apart during the Wars of Religion four hundred years more recently and nobody here gives them a second thought. It's a huge difference in mindset.


What I meant was the different perception of events, both historical and contemporary. It is in human nature not to be able to perceive objectively. Since history is, as you rightly say, an important part of our national cultural heritage, the different perceptions of history play a significant role in building up confrontations.


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest