Money/Education-based Apartheid & Separation

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Levo
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Money/Education-based Apartheid & Separation

Postby Levo » 2013-08-06, 14:21

There were political systems, where Apartheid was in law.

In capitalist economy, clubs, sports yards, discos, parks, etc can freely make an entrance-fee, which limits the circle of people who can afford entering to certain places.

Another aspect: companies, buildings often use batch cards, or magnet-cards to limit accessability of people who can enter to their territory. And the chosen people sometimes share something in common.
Like, when I go to the garden of the building, where I work, there are only high-educated, calm people there. (just one example).
While in the street, there are of every kind. The environment is also worse :)

Though, being a member of a school at a young age, also makes a kind of separation, where foreigners cannot enter without permission.

There is the money-based separation in housing, private-schools, tourist-destinations, bars.

Most of the above sounds natural for someone growing up in this. Though maybe it is not for others.

What do you think about separation, apartheid, education/money/behaviour/age-based separation?
Are there any good aspects of it considering the whole public?
What do you think are the bad aspects of it?
Last edited by Levo on 2013-08-07, 7:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Apartheid & Separation

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-06, 14:52

I think it's more than a little misleading to mix apartheid, which is a regime of separation enforced by the state, with various forms of voluntary self-segregation.
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Re: Apartheid & Separation

Postby Levo » 2013-08-06, 15:09

linguoboy wrote:I think it's more than a little misleading to mix apartheid, which is a regime of separation enforced by the state, with various forms of voluntary self-segregation.

Since when is money-based separation voluntary?

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Re: Apartheid & Separation

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-06, 15:19

Levo wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I think it's more than a little misleading to mix apartheid, which is a regime of separation enforced by the state, with various forms of voluntary self-segregation.

Since when is money-based separation voluntary?

Am I forced to engage in it simply because I have the funds available to do so?
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Re: Apartheid & Separation

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-06, 15:31

Apartheid is a state-enforced kind of segregation based on race. It's a highly emotional word, and you really should have picked something more neutral. It's like asking "what do you think of fascism? Oh, and by fascism I mean social security".

I think that private organizations should be able to deny membersip to anyone they want. I also think that government shouldn't be allowed to discriminate based on age*, sex, religion, colour etc. Now what's for breakfast?

*with the exception of minors

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Re: Apartheid & Separation

Postby Levo » 2013-08-07, 7:35

Note that apartheid simply means "segregation/separation".

Well, actually it is one of the reasons I opened this topic, and used the word, Apartheid.

It has been totally natural for me to that if someone doesn't have the proper amount of money, he/she won't be able to attend a lot of things, enter to places, meet certain people, lead a ceartain lifestyle, that others do.

But now it made me think, that it is actually not really natural. You cannot do about being born into a good family/good place, where you can earn enough.
Also what you tell, private organizations, etc... can freely chose who they want to have access to enter there... I am just asking your opinion about it and I got already two of them: what do you think about it? Isn't it also a kind of separatism? What do you think are the bad and good sides of it?

I am working at a multinational company, where the whole environment is way-above the standards we Hungarians are usually used to. Also, we have a lot in common with the people who work in the building (more companies are seated here). All have tertiary education, speak at least two foreign languages, like travelling and other cultures, and usually their behaviour is calmer and more desciplined than that of an average Hungarian. It's a harsh difference to the street or other institutions, places here in general.
But in order to be here in this office, I needed to have a naturally higher IQ than that of the average which is partly genetics, I needed to have a good support from my family in my childhood to be able to attend university and finance at least partly my living - which is not always solvable in other families, etc... (In Hungary part-time jobs are almost non-existent and you cannot make a living of student jobs, only if you are very lucky - just a note). And I needed other things as well, like a certain experience in life to have a proper behaviour and EQ, but those were more dependent on my personality and personal choices than possibilities, so I'm not adding them now. Though, who knows.
So, those not having these possibilities, cannot be here in this fine environment.

And money is a whole big topic also. If you are not able to pay the fee, you cannot enter to a place of your choice. And money here is really not dependent on how industrious you are, etc... And so it is in most of the world.
There are slums but golf-courses as well, filled with people having a totally different behaviour.

Isn't it also a kind of apartheid? :P

I personally think there are a lot of good sides of it, but many cannot do about not being able to belong to any of the more satisfying "groups", also.
What do you think?

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Re: Apartheid & Separation

Postby Lada » 2013-08-07, 16:40

Levo wrote:Also what you tell, private organizations, etc... can freely chose who they want to have access to enter there... I am just asking your opinion about it and I got already two of them: what do you think about it? Isn't it also a kind of separatism?

The same separatism is everywhere around the world - there're borders, different countries and even different races. Private company is just like a country, really. I'm being a boss don't want uneducated people work for me, I want top professionals. And countries want to prevent illegal immigration, they are likely to open borders for those who got some brains and can be useful like Edward Snowden for example.
What do you think are the bad and good sides of it?

What are the good and the bad sides of inviting only friends into your house? Isn't it also separatism and apartheid :wink:

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Re: Money/Education-based Apartheid & Separation

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-08, 2:44

Note that apartheid simply means "segregation/separation".
No it doesn't. The Dutch word originally meant that, but in English (and probably nowadays also in Dutch) it means state-enforced racism discrimination.

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Re: Apartheid & Separation

Postby Levo » 2013-08-08, 11:13

Lada wrote:
What do you think are the bad and good sides of it?

What are the good and the bad sides of inviting only friends into your house? Isn't it also separatism and apartheid :wink:

I'M aware of it. But I don't think these are really comparable. I also really like being surrounded by people and an environment that fits my needs.
I'm rather like, trying to discuss, where do you think the limits are?

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Re: Apartheid & Separation

Postby Levike » 2013-08-08, 13:08

Levo wrote:I'm rather like, trying to discuss, where do you think the limits are?

I think that when it's about private places/companies
then they have the right to choose who they want based on whatever conditions.

But in other cases separation shouldn't be allowed.
For example things like education shouldn't take into consideration how much money you have.
Last edited by Levike on 2013-08-08, 13:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Apartheid & Separation

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-08, 13:14

Levo wrote:Note that apartheid simply means "segregation/separation".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy

Did you look at any definitions of "apartheid" before you wrote that? For example, the one in Wiktionary? It's a highly charged term to throw around willy-nilly.

While you're at it, you may want to review the definition of "natural" as well.

Levente.Maier wrote:For example things like education shouldn't take into consideration how much money you have.

Why not? If you think $100,000 for a postgraduate degree is a good investment and I don't, why should I be forced to subsidise your choice? Particularly when it raises your lifetime earning power, not mine?
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Re: Money/Education-based Apartheid & Separation

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-08, 18:17

Why not? If you think $100,000 for a postgraduate degree is a good investment and I don't, why should I be forced to subsidise your choice? Particularly when it raises your lifetime earning power, not mine?
If you think spending tax dollars on a fire department is a good idea and I don't, why should I be forced to subsidize your preference? Particularly when it raises your life expectancy, not mine.

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Re: Money/Education-based Apartheid & Separation

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-08, 19:51

mōdgethanc wrote:
Why not? If you think $100,000 for a postgraduate degree is a good investment and I don't, why should I be forced to subsidise your choice? Particularly when it raises your lifetime earning power, not mine?
If you think spending tax dollars on a fire department is a good idea and I don't, why should I be forced to subsidize your preference? Particularly when it raises your life expectancy, not mine.

How does having a fire department around not raise your life expectancy? Are you fireproof? Is your house made of asbestos? Do you simply shoot whoever comes onto your property, regardless of whether there's a siren on their vehicle or not?
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Re: Money/Education-based Apartheid & Separation

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-08, 20:40

linguoboy wrote:How does having a fire department around not raise your life expectancy? Are you fireproof? Is your house made of asbestos?
I'm young and spry. But if you insist, how about highway maintenance? I bet you drive on the highway an awful lot more than I do.
Do you simply shoot whoever comes onto your property, regardless of whether there's a siren on their vehicle or not?
wat

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Re: Money/Education-based Apartheid & Separation

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-09, 3:57

mōdgethanc wrote:
linguoboy wrote:How does having a fire department around not raise your life expectancy? Are you fireproof? Is your house made of asbestos?
I'm young and spry.

So what--fires only kill invalids?

mōdgethanc wrote:But if you insist, how about highway maintenance? I bet you drive on the highway an awful lot more than I do.

I bet you're wrong. I don't even have a driver's licence.

Maybe lay off the analogies and just make a cogent argument for the policy you're actually trying to argue for?

While you're working on that, you should pay for my elective plastic surgery. Since everyone gets to look at me for free as I walk past them on the street, it will constitute a public good. And the increased tax revenue from my resulting runway model salary will flow right back into the public purse. Ultimately, it's an investment in the future.
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Re: Apartheid & Separation

Postby DissidentRage » 2013-08-13, 21:33

linguoboy wrote:Why not? If you think $100,000 for a postgraduate degree is a good investment and I don't, why should I be forced to subsidise your choice? Particularly when it raises your lifetime earning power, not mine?


So we should permit the active and malicious disenfranchisement of a group of people because you want to save a few bucks for yourself? Also might want to remember that the same people you are enabling could one day learn to deflect the large number of asteroids coming our way or to perform that life-saving surgery you need. Or you can continue to be the short-sighted Randroid sociopath.

Also the fact that it'd be $100k in the first place is another problem. Degrees have inflated by ~1000% in 30 years. Employers across the board demand degrees for positions that would have only required experience in the past, and the banking and private university industries have taken notice. Now they want to screw a whole generation or two at the gate by saddling them with life-long debt while denying them entry to the workforce. Unless they are willing to die or lose limbs in a profit war go military or become indentured servants unpaid interns.
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Re: Apartheid & Separation

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-13, 22:21

DissidentRage wrote:So we should permit the active and malicious disenfranchisement of a group of people because you want to save a few bucks for yourself? Also might want to remember that the same people you are enabling could one day learn to deflect the large number of asteroids coming our way or to perform that life-saving surgery you need. Or you can continue to be the short-sighted Randroid sociopath.
You realize a) this is linguoboy you're talking to, not Rand Paul and b) how stupid you sound making strawmen like that, right?
Also the fact that it'd be $100k in the first place is another problem. Degrees have inflated by ~1000% in 30 years. Employers across the board demand degrees for positions that would have only required experience in the past, and the banking and private university industries have taken notice. Now they want to screw a whole generation or two at the gate by saddling them with life-long debt while denying them entry to the workforce.
That's the problem. The reason degrees have become less useful is because more people have them now. If education cost less, still more people would get them, driving the value of them down even further. linguoboy's point is that subsidizing the market for higher education also distorts it by encouraging people to get degrees they wouldn't have needed 40 years ago, and the vicious circle continues.
Unless they are willing to die or lose limbs in a profit war go military or become indentured servants unpaid interns.
I'm not sure if you know what an indentured servant really is, but then again emotional hyperbole seems to be your arguing style.

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Re: Money/Education-based Apartheid & Separation

Postby Johanna » 2013-08-13, 22:32

I have an IQ of at least 130, and my talents definitely lie in the engineering or scientific fields.

If Sweden didn't have subsidised tertiary education, I'd be fucked. Just because my parents are working-class and can't afford to pay for me going to uni. Especially not since I have four siblings.

But sure, have people going to uni on the grounds of their parents' money and not on the grounds of their own accomplishments. Just don't pretend it's anything else than what it is: an extension of the nobility of old, just centred around money rather than blood.
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Re: Money/Education-based Apartheid & Separation

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-13, 23:51

Johanna wrote:I have an IQ of at least 130, and my talents definitely lie in the engineering or scientific fields.

If Sweden didn't have subsidised tertiary education, I'd be fucked. Just because my parents are working-class and can't afford to pay for me going to uni. Especially not since I have four siblings.

But sure, have people going to uni on the grounds of their parents' money and not on the grounds of their own accomplishments. Just don't pretend it's anything else than what it is: an extension of the nobility of old, just centred around money rather than blood.
I have an IQ of at least 130, and my talents lie in the sciences too. Know how I went to university? I took out loans and got scholarships. My parents didn't pay for the whole shebang and neither did the state. (What exactly are scholarships if not "one's own accomplishments", by the way?)

This is also a strawman. The problem with higher education is that it's too easy to get into, and it's too easy to pass without doing any real work (especially in the humanities - I was a pol sci major my first year, I know that firsthand.) A simple entrance exam like many countries have would level the playing field a lot more than free tuition for everybody.

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Re: Apartheid & Separation

Postby Levo » 2013-08-14, 10:45

linguoboy wrote:
Levo wrote:Note that apartheid simply means "segregation/separation".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy

Did you look at any definitions of "apartheid" before you wrote that? For example, the one in Wiktionary? It's a highly charged term to throw around willy-nilly.

While you're at it, you may want to review the definition of "natural" as well.


Linguoboy,
I know what those terms mean right now.

The issues discussed in this topic are also connected with debating such definitions.


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