The Zimmerman verdict [split]

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mōdgethanc
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Re: The Zimmerman verdict [split]

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-27, 17:08

To be fair, calling someone a cracker isn't compelling evidence that Martin was a racist since it's a rather mild insult compared to the dreaded N-bomb.

Anyway, as I already said:
modgethanc wrote:IMO, what this case is really about is the poor state of race relations in the United States. If Martin had been white or Hispanic, there would still have been outrage but not nearly as much because then it would merely be about gun rights and self-defense laws, not racial profiling. I think people are projecting their own beliefs about racism in their country onto this case and Zimmerman is just a convenient scapegoat to them.

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Re: The Zimmerman verdict [split]

Postby linguoboy » 2013-07-27, 18:48

Abavagada wrote:Everyone talks about how prevailant racism is, but the only way race will stop being an issue is when people stop making it an issue and stop looking for race in everything.

Right--because pretending racial disparities don't exist has worked out so well for people of colour thus far.

The only way race will stop being an issue is when the people who benefit from white supremacy acknowledge this fact squarely and work to change the status quo. But it's in their self-interest to convince themselves that these benefits are more exaggerated or invented than real.

You're right about one thing: If the races had been reversed, we wouldn't even be discussing this. Zimmerman would be behind bars for murder.
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Re: The Zimmerman verdict [split]

Postby Abavagada » 2013-07-27, 20:47

mōdgethanc wrote:To be fair, calling someone a cracker isn't compelling evidence that Martin was a racist since it's a rather mild insult compared to the dreaded N-bomb.


A racist term is a racist term, it doesn't matter if it's mild to compared to another.

It is the ONLY racist term that anyone heard used in connection with this case, so if someone wants to make any cries of racism, they have to look at Martin first.

And I don't buy the whole N-word outrage anyways. If the word is so offensive as to make someone go into an a rage, then they should NEVER use it, even with each other. With the other racial insults that were mentioned in this post, you never hear the targets of those calling themselves those things. The fact that black people use it openly with each other and have no problem tells me that they are choosing to react to it in a certain way.
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Re: The Zimmerman verdict [split]

Postby Abavagada » 2013-07-27, 20:55

linguoboy wrote:
Abavagada wrote:Everyone talks about how prevailant racism is, but the only way race will stop being an issue is when people stop making it an issue and stop looking for race in everything.

Right--because pretending racial disparities don't exist has worked out so well for people of colour thus far.


But that's just it. They STILL make it an issue.
Despite any evidence of racism being involved in this case, people have spun it all up into this case of racism. They want it to be there, and so claim it is. When they do that, they are simply perpetuating the problem, by convincing people that everything is whites vs blacks. People like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton live off this divide and take any opportunity they can to expand it.

Example:
When I criticized Clinton for his policies, I was seen as criticizing him for his policies.
When I criticized Bush for his policies, I was seen as criticizing him for his policies.
BUT
When I criticize Obama for his policies, I am seen as racist.

I am not looking at color. I am looking at what they do.
The person who accuses me of being racist IS seeing color, and thus they make it an issue.

Until people stop going around accusing others of being racist, race will always be an issue.
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Re: The Zimmerman verdict [split]

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-27, 23:49

Abavagada wrote:A racist term is a racist term, it doesn't matter if it's mild to compared to another.
By that logic, telling someone politely that you wish to be left alone is exactly like telling them to fuck off and that you hope they eat shit and die.
It is the ONLY racist term that anyone heard used in connection with this case, so if someone wants to make any cries of racism, they have to look at Martin first.
Maybe neither of then was a racist and it was a tragic misunderstanding.
And I don't buy the whole N-word outrage anyways. If the word is so offensive as to make someone go into an a rage, then they should NEVER use it, even with each other. With the other racial insults that were mentioned in this post, you never hear the targets of those calling themselves those things. The fact that black people use it openly with each other and have no problem tells me that they are choosing to react to it in a certain way.
You really don't know anything about sociolinguistics, do you? I wonder how you found this forum.

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Re: The Zimmerman verdict [split]

Postby Abavagada » 2013-07-28, 2:37

mōdgethanc wrote:You really don't know anything about sociolinguistics, do you? I wonder how you found this forum.


You really don't know anything about UniLang.

I FOUNDED this forum.

And you are still wrong.
Comparing two entirely different responses of telling someone to go away has nothing to do with whether an word is a racial slur. It doesn't stop becoming one simply because there is a stronger one out there. No one says "Stalin wasn't a mass murderer because Hitler killed far more people."

As to the other point, you made it. Since we don't know the actual mindset of either person, we can not call either one racist, yet that is exactly what is being done without any proof. So the entire argument about racism in this event becomes pointless.
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Re: The Zimmerman verdict [split]

Postby Yasna » 2013-07-28, 3:28

linguoboy wrote:The only way race will stop being an issue is when the people who benefit from white supremacy acknowledge this fact squarely and work to change the status quo. But it's in their self-interest to convince themselves that these benefits are more exaggerated or invented than real.

What exactly do you think that whole affirmative action business was, if not white America acknowledging its unfair advantage over black Americans and working to change that status quo?
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Re: The Zimmerman verdict [split]

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-28, 6:58

Abavagada wrote:You really don't know anything about UniLang.

I FOUNDED this forum.
I don't give a crap if you've founded a million forums. That has nothing to do with what we're discussing, or with your knowledge of linguistics, which I suspect is rather spotty if you don't understand why black people get upset when a white person calls them niggers but not another black person. Here you go.
Comparing two entirely different responses of telling someone to go away has nothing to do with whether an word is a racial slur. It doesn't stop becoming one simply because there is a stronger one out there. No one says "Stalin wasn't a mass murderer because Hitler killed far more people."
That doesn't mean that "honkey" is as offensive as "nigger", because words do not mean whatever you want them to mean ("fuck" is without a doubt a strong curse word than "poop"). Again, I have to doubt the extent of your linguistic knowledge here.
As to the other point, you made it. Since we don't know the actual mindset of either person, we can not call either one racist, yet that is exactly what is being done without any proof. So the entire argument about racism in this event becomes pointless.
I'm not claiming either of them are racist, or you racist for criticizing Obama - you're arguing against a strawman.

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Re: The Zimmerman verdict [split]

Postby Abavagada » 2013-07-28, 11:56

mōdgethanc wrote:
Abavagada wrote:You really don't know anything about UniLang.

I FOUNDED this forum.
I don't give a crap if you've founded a million forums. That has nothing to do with what we're discussing, or with your knowledge of linguistics, which I suspect is rather spotty if you don't understand why black people get upset when a white person calls them niggers but not another black person. Here you go.

Of course it's irrelevant. But you said you wondered how I found the forum, rather than answering my post, so I at least answered you on that.


mōdgethanc wrote:
Comparing two entirely different responses of telling someone to go away has nothing to do with whether an word is a racial slur. It doesn't stop becoming one simply because there is a stronger one out there. No one says "Stalin wasn't a mass murderer because Hitler killed far more people."
That doesn't mean that "honkey" is as offensive as "nigger", because words do not mean whatever you want them to mean ("fuck" is without a doubt a strong curse word than "poop"). Again, I have to doubt the extent of your linguistic knowledge here.

My knowledge of linguistics doesn't matter. Intensity of a kind of word when compared to another doesn't negate one being that kind. So while "cracker" is not AS strong as the N-word, it is still a racist term, and as I stated, it is the ONLY evidence of racism in this case. Questioning my knowledge on another subject doesn't change that.

mōdgethanc wrote:
As to the other point, you made it. Since we don't know the actual mindset of either person, we can not call either one racist, yet that is exactly what is being done without any proof. So the entire argument about racism in this event becomes pointless.
I'm not claiming either of them are racist, or you racist for criticizing Obama - you're arguing against a strawman.


As are you. You are talking about the N-word, when NO ONE involved in this case used it. I pointed out there is only one person that showed any evidence of racism, and you dragged in that word, linguistics, and questioning my abilities. And you will no doubt reply to this with more red herrings and ad-hoc attacks on me.
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Re: The Zimmerman verdict [split]

Postby Yasna » 2013-07-28, 17:20

"A [white] Bethesda man was beaten and robbed early Saturday morning in Adams Morgan by three [black] men who yelled, “This is for Trayvon Martin,” before attacking him, police said."

link
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Re: The Zimmerman verdict [split]

Postby Abavagada » 2013-07-28, 19:41

Yasna wrote:"A [white] Bethesda man was beaten and robbed early Saturday morning in Adams Morgan by three [black] men who yelled, “This is for Trayvon Martin,” before attacking him, police said."

link


*waits for indignant moral outrage from Sharpton, Jackson and Obama*

*hears only crickets*
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Re: The Zimmerman verdict [split]

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-29, 18:34

Abavagada wrote:My knowledge of linguistics doesn't matter. Intensity of a kind of word when compared to another doesn't negate one being that kind. So while "cracker" is not AS strong as the N-word, it is still a racist term, and as I stated, it is the ONLY evidence of racism in this case. Questioning my knowledge on another subject doesn't change that.

As are you. You are talking about the N-word, when NO ONE involved in this case used it. I pointed out there is only one person that showed any evidence of racism, and you dragged in that word, linguistics, and questioning my abilities. And you will no doubt reply to this with more red herrings and ad-hoc attacks on me.
*ad hominem

You seem interested in having a platform to rant about the unfair treatment of white people in the United States today. However, I have zero interest in that topic, so I think I'll leave you to it.

But, for the third time:

modgethanc wrote:I think people are projecting their own beliefs about racism in their country onto this case

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Re: The Zimmerman verdict [split]

Postby johnklepac » 2013-08-01, 3:59

linguoboy wrote:The only way race will stop being an issue is when the people who benefit from white supremacy acknowledge this fact squarely and work to change the status quo. But it's in their self-interest to convince themselves that these benefits are more exaggerated or invented than real.

While effective in theory, this is unlikely to work. These benefits, so to speak, ought to be reframed as immunities to the disadvantages of minorities; otherwise white people's reactions will range from "Benefits? Cool!" (cathartic or, I fear, genuine) to general disgust at being dragged into an issue they don't actively perpetrate but still feel at blame for.

Abavagada wrote:*waits for indignant moral outrage from Sharpton, Jackson and Obama*

*hears only crickets*

Of course you do. They probably don't know about it, but even if they did, humans tend to get massive retribution boners, no matter their skin color.


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