The Zimmerman verdict [split]

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Yasna
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The Zimmerman verdict [split]

Postby Yasna » 2013-07-14, 14:52

I'm happy that Zimmerman was found not guilty. Lots of people determined Zimmerman was a racist murderer before they even knew the facts of the case. But the facts did not bear that out.
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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby johnklepac » 2013-07-14, 15:57

Yasna wrote:I'm happy that Zimmerman was found not guilty. Lots of people determined Zimmerman was a racist murderer before they even knew the facts of the case. But the facts did not bear that out.

I am, too.

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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby linguoboy » 2013-07-14, 16:37

johnklepac wrote:
Yasna wrote:I'm happy that Zimmerman was found not guilty. Lots of people determined Zimmerman was a racist murderer before they even knew the facts of the case. But the facts did not bear that out.

I am, too.

I'm happy not to count either of you among my friends. But I'm more happy to have Ta-Nehisi Coates around to offer his perspective. I guess it's a lucky thing he didn't grow up in Florida or somewhere else with a "stand your ground" law.
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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-14, 21:16

I'm happy to live in a country where nobody gives a shit about the outcome of the Zimmerman case because we're not collectively obsessed with race issues and gun rights.

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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby Lur » 2013-07-14, 23:16

I don't even know who's that guy.
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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby Yasna » 2013-07-15, 1:19

linguoboy wrote:I'm happy not to count either of you among my friends. But I'm more happy to have Ta-Nehisi Coates around to offer his perspective. I guess it's a lucky thing he didn't grow up in Florida or somewhere else with a "stand your ground" law.

Well that's a bizarre reaction to what I said. I suppose you think that a racist jury let off the hook a racist murderer who was being defended by racist lawyers, all playing their part in perpetuating an inherently racist system. :roll:
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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby linguoboy » 2013-07-15, 2:03

Yasna wrote:
linguoboy wrote:I'm happy not to count either of you among my friends. But I'm more happy to have Ta-Nehisi Coates around to offer his perspective. I guess it's a lucky thing he didn't grow up in Florida or somewhere else with a "stand your ground" law.

Well that's a bizarre reaction to what I said. I suppose you think that a racist jury let off the hook a racist murderer who was being defended by racist lawyers, all playing their part in perpetuating an inherently racist system. :roll:

Think what you will. Being "happy" about the verdict is what I find pretty bizarre. Like Coates, I think there simply wasn't enough evidence to convict him and I don't see that as a cause for joy unless you really like the idea of self-appointed vigilantes shooting their unarmed neighbours to death at will. But if that does appeal to you, consider moving to one of the states where that is now legal.
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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby Yasna » 2013-07-15, 2:03

mōdgethanc wrote:I'm happy to live in a country where nobody gives a shit about the outcome of the Zimmerman case because we're not collectively obsessed with race issues and gun rights.

I'm jealous.
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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby Johanna » 2013-07-15, 2:10

That was in Florida right?

So, in that state you can shoot someone you don't know to death, just because you thought that the person looked suspicious, and get away with it, but you if you fire a few warning shots against someone you know to be violent (but no harm whatsoever comes to that person), you get 20 years in jail?

Is it just me who think this reeks of race and gender issues? White guy killing a black guy = gets off the hook, black woman warning her man to stop = 20 fucking years in jail.
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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby linguoboy » 2013-07-15, 2:23

Johanna wrote:That was in Florida right?

So, in that state you can shoot someone you don't know to death, just because you thought that the person looked suspicious, and get away with it, but you if you fire a few warning shots against someone you know to be violent (but no harm whatsoever comes to that person), you get 20 years in jail?

Is it just me who think this reeks of race and gender issues? White guy killing a black guy = gets off the hook, black woman warning her man to stop = 20 fucking years in jail.

Further discussion really should be moved to a dedicated thread.
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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby Yasna » 2013-07-15, 2:25

linguoboy wrote:Think what you will. Being "happy" about the verdict is what I find pretty bizarre.

I'm happy because I couldn't help feeling sympathy for Zimmerman after seeing the venom and abuse of power that he was subjected to after some prominent figures exploited this tragedy for race baiting.

Like Coates, I think there simply wasn't enough evidence to convict him and I don't see that as a cause for joy unless you really like the idea of self-appointed vigilantes shooting their unarmed neighbours to death at will. But if that does appeal to you, consider moving to one of the states where that is now legal.

I personally don't care what someone does to their unarmed neighbor if said unarmed neighbor is smashing the person's head against concrete without an extremely good reason. ("a creepy ass cracker is following me" isn't good enough)
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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby johntm » 2013-07-15, 2:28

Yasna wrote:I'm happy that Zimmerman was found not guilty. Lots of people determined Zimmerman was a racist murderer before they even knew the facts of the case. But the facts did not bear that out.

I can't say I care too much. If people really cared about black teenagers dying, they'd do something about gang violence in Chicago, which, from what I hear, is pretty bad. But I guess that doesn't have the evil white-hispanic-whatever-the-fuck killing a black kid, so we can't make it to be a race thing. It seems like both sides weren't exactly blameless in the Zimmerman thing (despite what some people believe, Trayvon wasn't walking home from Bible study humming choir hymns, I actually think he's the one who started it, right?), but we'll never know exactly what happened and if there's not enough evidence, there ain't enough evidence.

Johanna wrote:So, in that state you can shoot someone you don't know to death, just because you thought that the person looked suspicious, and get away with it
I think there was more to it than looking suspicious, but whatever, fuck facts, right?

Just saw linguoboy posted before I submitted this...yeah, someone want to open a thread in the politic/religion subforum, since that seems the best fit?
Is it just me who think this reeks of race and gender issues? White guy killing a black guy = gets off the hook, black woman warning her man to stop = 20 fucking years in jail.

No, plenty of people think this, and none of them make sense, at least as far I've heard. Is there proof Zimmerman was racist? I'll admit I don't know a ton about the case, but I've not heard of nor have I seen anything proving Zimmerman was racist. Not to say that he seemed like a great, morally upstanding guy though.
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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby linguoboy » 2013-07-15, 2:33

johntm wrote:Is there proof Zimmerman was racist?

What evidence would you accept as proof?
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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby johntm » 2013-07-15, 2:38

linguoboy wrote:
johntm wrote:Is there proof Zimmerman was racist?

What evidence would you accept as proof?

Something halfway convincing? I haven't read much into the case (which I think I've said before here), and I'm just skimming the wiki page now.
The media and a bunch of celebrities saying he's racist doesn't convince me much.
Edit: Just got finished reading the wikipedia page, and I'm not gonna do anymore reading on this tonight because I'm getting tired, but there's nothing on there that leads me to believe Zimmerman was racist. If anything, Trayvon was, because he described Zimmerman as a "creepy ass cracker".
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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby Johanna » 2013-07-15, 3:18

You can be the opposite of racist and still instinctively see a young black guy as threatening, or at last suspicious, in situations where you don't see young guys of other races as that though...

It's all about stereotypes and how media depicts things, and whether or not you like it, you will pick it up from a young age, which means it will be at your core and you can't really tell that it's there unless you really think about it.


In Sweden, in order for self-defense to actually be self-defense you can't kill anyone just because you feel threatened, you have to be certain the other person can hurt you, like you seeing him or her holding a gun and aiming at you. So Zimmerman would have been sent to jail for manslaughter for a decade or so (minus the usual 1/3 on probation, so 6-7 years in jail and 3-4 on probation).

And firing a few warning shots will definitely not mean 20 years in prison, but more like 1 (or even more likely: 1 year with an anklet), "for unlawful firing of gun within a 'living area'".
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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby johntm » 2013-07-15, 3:48

Johanna wrote:You can be the opposite of racist and still instinctively see a young black guy as threatening, or at last suspicious, in situations where you don't see young guys of other races as that though...
Great, but there's absolutely no evidence that he was racist, so people need to stop saying that he is. It's one thing to say "I think George Zimmerman is racist", that's an opinion, but I've seen a lot of people acting like and saying it was racist. Yeah, and the lizard people teamed up with the Nazis to make evil plots in their base on the dark side of the moon. I've seen the same amount of evidence for both.

In Sweden, in order for self-defense to actually be self-defense you can't kill anyone just because you feel threatened, you have to be certain the other person can hurt you, like you seeing him or her holding a gun and aiming at you. So Zimmerman would have been sent to jail for manslaughter for a decade or so (minus the usual 1/3 on probation, so 6-7 years in jail and 3-4 on probation).
He didn't just feel threatened, he was getting his head slammed into concrete while Trayvon straddled him. And most self-defense laws here say lethal force is allowed if a person has reasonable fear for their life. That, of course, is where the real debate in this thing starts--the paucity of evidence (and the fact that there's only one person alive who can say exactly what happened and it's in his best interest to spin it at least a little) combined with the fact that there's an intended gray area in the law means it'll always be a debate.

And firing a few warning shots will definitely not mean 20 years in prison, but more like 1 (or even more likely: 1 year with an anklet), "for unlawful firing of gun within a 'living area'".

I have absolutely no clue what went on with this case beyond seeing headlines so I'm not really gonna speak on it. At least, not until (if) I read up on it. Did she have a good enough reason to fear being attacked? I know jackshit about Florida self-defense laws too.
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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby johnklepac » 2013-07-15, 4:14

linguoboy wrote:Think what you will. Being "happy" about the verdict is what I find pretty bizarre. Like Coates, I think there simply wasn't enough evidence to convict him and I don't see that as a cause for joy unless you really like the idea of self-appointed vigilantes shooting their unarmed neighbours to death at will. But if that does appeal to you, consider moving to one of the states where that is now legal.

That's just it. Too much is still unknown (I don't think he was setting out to kill Martin until his nose was broken, but that's beside the point), and I prefer letting a guilty man go free to putting an innocent man in prison. That happened, so I'm happy. It's not like any parents are gonna let him within a mile of their kids, but at least he's getting a second chance to live his life and not be an idiot.

Johanna wrote:you have to be certain the other person can hurt you, like you seeing him or her holding a gun and aiming at you. So Zimmerman would have been sent to jail for manslaughter.

Martin did break his nose, though. If someone got in a fight with me and did that, I sure as hell wouldn't put it past him/her to go further.

Johanna wrote:And firing a few warning shots will definitely not mean 20 years in prison, but more like 1 (or even more likely: 1 year with an anklet), "for unlawful firing of gun within a 'living area'".

I'd give her a sentence like the latter. That case makes me want to vomit. I wouldn't give anyone a 20-year sentence but for, well, first-degree murder or something.

Johanna wrote:You can be the opposite of racist and still instinctively see a young black guy as threatening, or at last suspicious, in situations where you don't see young guys of other races as that though...

It's all about stereotypes and how media depicts things, and whether or not you like it, you will pick it up from a young age, which means it will be at your core and you can't really tell that it's there unless you really think about it.

It's true. Many don't realize it, but tests like this one can pick them out. My results spread across about a quarter of the continuum, though they had a different order than I'd expected.

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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby Car » 2013-07-15, 9:09

It's funny (or rather sad) how the trial wasn't that much covered here in Germany and consequently, didn't receive much attention, but people harshly criticised its outcome anyway. My understanding was that the laws were ridiculous, not the outcome. Linguoboy's article seems to support that.
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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby johnklepac » 2013-07-15, 13:22

Car wrote:About Zimmerman: It's funny (or rather sad) how the trial wasn't that much covered here in Germany and consequently, didn't receive much attention, but people harshly criticised its outcome anyway.

The story's been co-opted to support a wide array of viewpoints in American politics and is now frequently understood in such terms. It's been months since I last saw an article about Germany run in the American press.

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Re: Random happiness thread 2

Postby linguoboy » 2013-07-15, 14:31

johntm wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
johntm wrote:Is there proof Zimmerman was racist?

What evidence would you accept as proof?

Something halfway convincing?

I mean give me examples. I so routinely hear that what I perceive as racially-motivated killings are "not about race" that I'm genuinely curious what evidence the average white person in this country needs to conclude that race was a factor.

BTW, here's Coates most recent piece on the Zimmerman case: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/07/trayvon-martin-and-the-irony-of-american-justice/277782/. Those of you who couldn't be bothered to read the much shorter piece I posted yesterday likely won't read this either, but I think it provides a useful primer on the underlying issues, particularly for some of the Europeans (and Canadians) in the thread.
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