Madam Le Pen indicted for "incitement to racial hatred"

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Re: Madam Le Pen indicted for "incitement to racial hatred"

Postby Car » 2013-07-09, 19:53

There was a boycott in 1987 and this also made the EU-wide census in 2011 very difficult here. People care a lot about data privacy here and as such don't want the state to collect more data than necessary.
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Re: Madam Le Pen indicted for "incitement to racial hatred"

Postby JackFrost » 2013-07-09, 21:32

Ok, still a dick move to speakers of endangered languages.
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Re: Madam Le Pen indicted for "incitement to racial hatred"

Postby Car » 2013-07-11, 9:12

No, it isn't. :roll: Actually, when asked about their religion, the minorities were most likely not to answer that question, so what makes you think the linguistic minorities might like being asked that?

Actually, they did not ask more than was required by the EU and even that was criticised as too much and people are afraid of abuse of the data.
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Re: Madam Le Pen indicted for "incitement to racial hatred"

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-11, 16:32

And why do minorities not want to answer that? I've always found it weird when people are all secretive about their ethnic or national background or the languages they speak. "Oh, you've probably never heard of it." Well, most of the time I have, so are they ashamed or something?

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Re: Madam Le Pen indicted for "incitement to racial hatred"

Postby Marah » 2013-07-11, 16:44

I imagine nationalists would use the figures "x% of French people speak Arabic??? We have to protect our French culture before it goes extinct!!"
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Madam Le Pen indicted for "incitement to racial hatred"

Postby JackFrost » 2013-07-11, 21:18

Car wrote:what makes you think the linguistic minorities might like being asked that?

You're still forgetting that I live in a country where official figures are collected from such minorities. With little fuss. I already mentioned that the figures are used to know where to allocate the money to support schools, libraries, community centres, events, discrimination prevention, better employment opportunities, etc. etc. etc. Perhaps that is why Canada is rather good integrating immigrants into the society, which is something that cannot be really said for some parts in Europe.

To me, refusing to answer means they're not doing a single favour to themselves and to those who have a huge passion preserving their endangered language and culture. Pardon the tone of this: it's like they're deliberately choosing to become extinct.

Do you see why I am baffled? And I get it. Privacy concerns. Go back to my first two sentences of this very post.

Actually, they did not ask more than was required by the EU and even that was criticised as too much and people are afraid of abuse of the data.

Sounds like the governments failed very badly communicating to the citizens how the data will be used.

Marah wrote:I imagine nationalists would use the figures "x% of French people speak Arabic??? We have to protect our French culture before it goes extinct!!"

You can counter that by saying how many Arabic-speakers can speak French. I'm pretty sure it's virtually all of them apart from some recent immigrants and elderly folks.
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Re: Madam Le Pen indicted for "incitement to racial hatred"

Postby Car » 2013-07-11, 23:35

You're still forgetting that people care far more about privacy than elsewhere. Many simply don't trust the government in such cases. It was assumed that religious minorities feared that the stats might be used against them one day, as the Nazis did. Don't forget that Canada's immigrants are far better qualified and chosen than those in many parts of Europe.
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Re: Madam Le Pen indicted for "incitement to racial hatred"

Postby Lietmotiv » 2013-07-23, 7:58

Car wrote: Don't forget that Canada's immigrants are far better qualified and chosen than those in many parts of Europe.


Very good point.

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Re: Madam Le Pen indicted for "incitement to racial hatred"

Postby JackFrost » 2013-07-23, 17:00

Car wrote:You're still forgetting that people care far more about privacy than elsewhere. Many simply don't trust the government in such cases. It was assumed that religious minorities feared that the stats might be used against them one day, as the Nazis did. Don't forget that Canada's immigrants are far better qualified and chosen than those in many parts of Europe.

No, I am not forgetting that. I simply find it paranoiac because it was over 60 years ago and there are no signs that some sort of fascism or communism will return to govern your country thanks to various mechanisms that prevent them from gaining a lot of ground early. Lessons are apparently well learnt. Besides, I am not talking about religions and the state already keeps track of the members for tax purposes regardless. What I am really talking about preserving minority languages and respecting their right to, well, exist freely and publicly. On one hand, we complain how the state is doing badly respecting EU agreements concerning minority languages, yet on the other hand, the speakers of minority languages aren't doing themselves much of a favour not showing themselves in order to receive what I believe is very vital for minority languages to survive in a very globalized country: institutional support.

I don't know. I can't force them to be public and receive state support that the mainstream German speakers already enjoy for so long. I just cannot get over that flaw in logic that the minority-language speakers are perhaps partially responsible that the status quo still continues to be so.

I'll stop right here. I don't wish to continue this if we're not going anywhere. Sorry if I ever was too rough.
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Re: Madam Le Pen indicted for "incitement to racial hatred"

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-24, 18:13

Car wrote:It was assumed that religious minorities feared that the stats might be used against them one day, as the Nazis did.
These are linguistic minorities we're talking about though.
Don't forget that Canada's immigrants are far better qualified and chosen than those in many parts of Europe.
I don't understand how this is relevant.
JackFrost wrote:No, I am not forgetting that. I simply find it paranoid because it was over 60 years ago and there are no signs that some sort of fascism or communism will return to govern your country thanks to various mechanisms that prevent them from gaining a lot of ground early. Lessons are apparently well learned.
Yeah, Germany, I know you feel guilty about the Holocaust and I'ma let you finish, but Cambodia had the best genocide of all time.

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Re: Madam Le Pen indicted for "incitement to racial hatred"

Postby Marah » 2013-07-24, 18:30

These are linguistic minorities we're talking about though.

Languages are often associated with peoples though. Compare it Spain under Franco for instance, if you spoke another language than Castellano you weren't really considered a friend of the state.

I don't understand how this is relevant.

Well, they think immigrants are just taking advantage of the welfare system, they're not really integrated, etc. There's a lot of resentment.
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Madam Le Pen indicted for "incitement to racial hatred"

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-25, 6:01

I know full well about that but still don't see what that has to do with linguistic minorities and census forms unless you mean that's why they don't put their languages on them.

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Re: Madam Le Pen indicted for "incitement to racial hatred"

Postby Marah » 2013-07-25, 6:24

I know full well about that but still don't see what that has to do with linguistic minorities and census forms unless you mean that's why they don't put their languages on them.


Yes, that's what I meant, I think it's this mistrust of the state (maybe inherited from WW2?) coupled with the fact that they know the data could be used by political parties like "FN" against them for instance.
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Re: Madam Le Pen indicted for "incitement to racial hatred"

Postby Car » 2013-07-25, 16:07

JackFrost wrote:No, I am not forgetting that. I simply find it paranoiac because it was over 60 years ago and there are no signs that some sort of fascism or communism will return to govern your country thanks to various mechanisms that prevent them from gaining a lot of ground early.


Maybe, but the state collecting data is a touchy subject, these days with all the revelations about the NSA's activities and the BND's links to them even more than ever.

Lessons are apparently well learnt. Besides, I am not talking about religions and the state already keeps track of the members for tax purposes regardless.


Only of those organisations that collect a church tax.

What I am really talking about preserving minority languages and respecting their right to, well, exist freely and publicly. On one hand, we complain how the state is doing badly respecting EU agreements concerning minority languages, yet on the other hand, the speakers of minority languages aren't doing themselves much of a favour not showing themselves in order to receive what I believe is very vital for minority languages to survive in a very globalized country: institutional support.


True, although I'm not sure if the linguistic minority actually didn't want it, since we only know it for sure about the religious minority (but what you wrote applies there as well).

I don't know. I can't force them to be public and receive state support that the mainstream German speakers already enjoy for so long. I just cannot get over that flaw in logic that the minority-language speakers are perhaps partially responsible that the status quo still continues to be so.


German isn't the only official language everywhere. Low German, Frisian, Danish and Sorbian also have the status, too, in the regions where they are spoken, if I'm not mistaken (actually, some argue if German also includes Low German in such contexts). Those (plus Romanes) are the languages of the national minorities as opposed to immigrants' languages (which is yet a different debate).

I'll stop right here. I don't wish to continue this if we're not going anywhere. Sorry if I ever was too rough.


No problem, it's just a different attitude here.
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