Best and worst neighbour

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23466
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby linguoboy » 2013-07-29, 15:59

AndreiB wrote:Me, as a straight guy, wouldn't make out with my gf in the middle of Red Square, cause my home education taught me it's not nice to make up in public places, in front of everybody. So a small kiss on the lips would be enough. What is the purpouse in making out in front of everybody, anyway? Don't people do that to draw attention?

I don't know, you'd have to ask them. But the difference is that I've never heard of an opposite-sex couple being arrested for this behaviour in a state which claims to belong to the community of liberal democratic nations.

AndreiB wrote:So if you guys defend the Islamist out here, send 2 gays to Moscow, and then send them to Groznyi, or any Russian Muslim republic in the South. You'll find out who's more liberal.

Ah yes, the А у вас негров линчуют defence. Some things simply never change.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-29, 17:53

Could somebody please point out to me who is defending Islamists here? 'Cause it ain't me.

Sol Invictus
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2988
Joined: 2007-01-04, 13:59
Gender: female
Location: Rīga
Country: LV Latvia (Latvija)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Sol Invictus » 2013-07-29, 18:44

linguoboy wrote:
AndreiB wrote:Me, as a straight guy, wouldn't make out with my gf in the middle of Red Square, cause my home education taught me it's not nice to make up in public places, in front of everybody. So a small kiss on the lips would be enough. What is the purpouse in making out in front of everybody, anyway? Don't people do that to draw attention?

I don't know, you'd have to ask them. But the difference is that I've never heard of an opposite-sex couple being arrested for this behaviour in a state which claims to belong to the community of liberal democratic nations.

AndreiB wrote:So if you guys defend the Islamist out here, send 2 gays to Moscow, and then send them to Groznyi, or any Russian Muslim republic in the South. You'll find out who's more liberal.

Ah yes, the А у вас негров линчуют defence. Some things simply never change.

I think the whole point about muslims is invalid as they do not have their own state with more oppresive policy, same with heterosexuals making out - it might be seen as socialy unacceptable, but is there law against it?

Also this isn't really about lynching, rather it seems that lately Russians have developed this racist idea that whatever they might have done to anyone it is okay, because Muslims are worse

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23466
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby linguoboy » 2013-07-29, 18:55

Sol Invictus wrote:Also this isn't really about lynching, rather it seems that lately Russians have developed this racist idea that whatever they might have done to anyone it is okay, because Muslims are worse

You missed the point of the link. "А у вас негров линчуют" is not actually about lynching and never was; it's about using tu quoque arguments to deflect criticism and derail discussion. "If you think X is bad, well Y is far worse!" isn't actually a refutation of claims that X is bad. It's just a naked attempt to distract attention from them. Sadly, there's nothing specifically Russian about this sort of illogical thinking; you'll see parallel arguments from Americans, for instance, attempting to justify our own "War on Terror" targeting Muslims.

If you do a metaanalysis of AndreiB's debating style, you'll see that it consists of a string of informal fallacies, including Godwinning, strawmanning, and assorted irrelevances.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

Sol Invictus
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2988
Joined: 2007-01-04, 13:59
Gender: female
Location: Rīga
Country: LV Latvia (Latvija)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Sol Invictus » 2013-07-29, 19:53

I did read the article, however I don't think "you too" and "they are worse" is the same thing. While here you might think it was brought up because you just said something in favour of Muslims, my point was that this might just be a general argument they make whenever faced with criticism

User avatar
voron
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 4862
Joined: 2007-07-15, 3:29
Real Name: Igor
Gender: male
Country: TR Turkey (Türkiye)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby voron » 2013-08-05, 2:17

Lada wrote:
voron wrote:Worst: Russia. Just because it is so big and influential.
Best: Ukraine. They share our sentiment towards Russia.

Russia is the biggest market for Belorussian goods and food and it's a great job market too.

While Belarus is a slightly bothersome but not a really significant neighbour. Russia is giving us an inferiority complex, that's why.

You know it's a strange feeling when you watch a sports event and Russia performs great so you do want to support it, but then you remember what they teach us at school and on TV about the glorious Belarusian history and how we had been enemies with Russians (e.g. see
here, here, and here), and then you think 'but we share the same language and they are just like us', and the next thought is 'but they supressed our own language', and then you remember how you feel at home when you come to Russia and how friendly the Russian people are towards us... why don't you annex us already so I can just watch the match instead of being split between 2 identities?

Regarding the Muslim issue: This year I visited both Moscow and St. Petersburg and I'd say that as much as 20% of people I saw on the streets were Central Asians (Uzbek and Tadjik) and Caucasians*. This large group is not naturalized and they are often displayed as a bother in mass media, so the 'natives' must be concerned, if not yet panicking.

*in this context, someone from the Caucasus

As someone who is interested in the Turkic languages I enjoyed my stay, because I was able to eavesdrop to multiple conversations in Uzbek and, after having skimmed through an Uzbek textbook (which was in Russian of course) I was able to converse with a waiter at an Uzbek cafe. And last but not least, I had delicious lagmon and tandir kabob. :D

User avatar
Yasna
Posts: 2239
Joined: 2011-09-12, 1:17
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Yasna » 2013-08-05, 3:39

voron wrote:why don't you annex us already so I can just watch the match instead of being split between 2 identities?

That can be arranged.......
Ein Buch muß die Axt sein für das gefrorene Meer in uns. - Kafka

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-05, 3:57

Didn't Russia already try that?

It must suck being a country with a small population next to a culturally dominant one that speaks the same language. Oh, wait a second ...

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23466
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-05, 14:24

mōdgethanc wrote:It must suck being a country with a small population next to a culturally dominant one that speaks the same language. Oh, wait a second ...

On the other hand, think of the savings to your defence budget!
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-05, 15:12

linguoboy wrote:On the other hand, think of the savings to your defence budget!
I know, right? It's almost like we don't have the 14th highest miltary expenditure in the world as of 2013.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23466
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-05, 16:51

mōdgethanc wrote:
linguoboy wrote:On the other hand, think of the savings to your defence budget!
I know, right? It's almost like we don't have the 14th highest miltary expenditure in the world as of 2013.

Ah, that's only in real terms. As a percentage of GDP, you're on a par with Slovenia and Nepal.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

Sol Invictus
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 2988
Joined: 2007-01-04, 13:59
Gender: female
Location: Rīga
Country: LV Latvia (Latvija)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Sol Invictus » 2013-08-05, 17:12

voron wrote:Regarding the Muslim issue: This year I visited both Moscow and St. Petersburg and I'd say that as much as 20% of people I saw on the streets were Central Asians (Uzbek and Tadjik) and Caucasians*. This large group is not naturalized and they are often displayed as a bother in mass media, so the 'natives' must be concerned, if not yet panicking.

Note how, if predominantly Russian area has some minority that takes up as much as 20% of the population, it is okay for natives to get panicky, but, if in any area, which has large, unnaturalized Russian minority, natives get panicky, the natives must be evil and forcing Russians to assimilate :ohwell:
Last edited by Sol Invictus on 2013-08-05, 21:03, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-05, 19:51

linguoboy wrote:Ah, that's only in real terms. As a percentage of GDP, you're on a par with Slovenia and Nepal.
And Canada is also 11th in GDP, so that comparison falls flat. I'm not denying my country benefits from being best friends with the biggest bully in the schoolyard. I'm just sayin', that (auto-)stereotype of Canada not having a military is wrong.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23466
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-05, 20:01

mōdgethanc wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Ah, that's only in real terms. As a percentage of GDP, you're on a par with Slovenia and Nepal.
And Canada is also 11th in GDP, so that comparison falls flat. I'm not denying my country benefits from being best friends with the biggest bully in the schoolyard. I'm just sayin', that (auto-)stereotype of Canada not having a military is wrong.

No one ever said it was right. I said that you save on defence costs, and you do. (Incidentally, the comparison is even more apt than I first realised: According to the data I found, Russia and the US both spend 4.4% of GDP on defence, whereas Belarus and Canada spend 1.4% and 1.3% respectively. For comparison, the world average is 2.5%.)
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-05, 20:07

The dominant narrative here is that we're a nation of freeloaders and wimps who cower behind the might of Uncle Sam while not spending anything on our own forces who are living in ghettos and flying 40-year-old helicopters. You can be forgiven for not knowing that.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23466
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-05, 20:11

mōdgethanc wrote:The dominant narrative here is that we're a nation of freeloaders and wimps who cower behind the might of Uncle Sam while not spending anything on our own forces who are living in ghettos and flying 40-year-old helicopters. You can be forgiven for not knowing that.

Yeah, sorry if it makes me sound even more like the schoolyard bully, but y'all's lack of self-esteem ain't exactly my problem.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-05, 20:22

You could call it an inferiority-superiority complex, actually, since we simply find other things to be smug about. (Hey, is gay marriage legal in Illinois yet?)

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23466
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-05, 20:28

mōdgethanc wrote:You could call it an inferiority-superiority complex, actually, since we simply find other things to be smug about. (Hey, is gay marriage legal in Illinois yet?)

Still working on it. Say, have they legalised fun in Ontario yet? Or is that bill still in committee?
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-05, 20:37

Depends on your definition of fun. Gambling and prostitution are legal; alcohol and tobacco are but highly regulated. Soft drugs are still a grey area though.

Or, y'know, there's always laser tag.

User avatar
linguoboy
Posts: 23466
Joined: 2009-08-25, 15:11
Real Name: Da
Location: Chicago
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby linguoboy » 2013-08-05, 20:47

mōdgethanc wrote:Soft drugs are still a grey area though.

Unlike hard drugs, which are apparently a go. But only if you're in municipal administration.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Car and 1 guest