Best and worst neighbour

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Sol Invictus
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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Sol Invictus » 2013-07-17, 1:21

Poland probably is the best neighbour to everyome no longer bordering them (at least I haven't heard anyhting bad about them), wonder what that could mean? :D Make the world consist of islands with no landborders and eternal peace shall be granted

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mōdgethanc
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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-17, 4:28

Sol Invictus wrote:Poland probably is the best neighbour to everyome no longer bordering them (at least I haven't heard anyhting bad about them), wonder what that could mean? :D Make the world consist of islands with no landborders and eternal peace shall be granted
Just like the warm and friendly relationship between China and Japan, amirite?

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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Varislintu » 2013-07-18, 20:27

Sol Invictus wrote:Poland probably is the best neighbour to everyome no longer bordering them (at least I haven't heard anyhting bad about them), wonder what that could mean? :D Make the world consist of islands with no landborders and eternal peace shall be granted


Actually, Finland is becoming a bit miffed at Poland lately because apparently they have a couple fertilizer factories that may be leaking huge amounts of phosphor into the Baltic Sea, which causes more problems (like toxic blue green algae) for us than them, and Poland is not cooperating as much as we'd like in letting the leakages be measured and dealt with. Also they don't treat a lot of their waste water, which leads to the same problems.

Russia came up recently in a discussion with a relative who did his army service in the early 2000s. They were doing a defense scenario, and at one point of the briefing he spoke up, asking "But what direction is the enemy attacking from in this scenario?". He was given a look like he was a newbie, followed by his commanding officer saying, "Private, the attack always comes from the east unless otherwise specified". :P
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Sol Invictus
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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Sol Invictus » 2013-07-19, 0:55

Obviously with some countries whole world is not enough space to seperate them. But if you got land borders you have more things to argue about even with your supposedly friendly neighbors

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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Saim » 2013-07-27, 2:12

Lada wrote:and of course islamic terrorists are kind of enemies who want Russian oil and gas, natural water and all the rest what Russian territory has, others want to create islamic state on our southern territories.


If you look at the history of Muslim peoples in the Russian Federation, it's pretty clear that Islamism is just a form of extremism that reacts to the oppression that these ethnic groups have suffered under Russian rule. That's the problem with Muslim ethnic minority groups - Islamism is an attractive, internationalist ideology that can turn essentially ethnic conflicts that could be solved by assuring the right to self-determination to every people into part of this purposely imagined (by the West - including Russia) "War on Terror".

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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-27, 4:28

It's news to me that Islamic extremism in Russia or anywhere else is motivated by a desire to control the oil and natural gas supply.

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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby linguoboy » 2013-07-28, 13:19

mōdgethanc wrote:It's news to me that Islamic extremism in Russia or anywhere else is motivated by a desire to control the oil and natural gas supply.

Why should they want to benefit from the natural resources of their own ancestral territories anyway? Don't they know they Russians took control of them fair and square?
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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Sol Invictus » 2013-07-28, 14:14

Was the point that Islamic terrorists want all Russian natural resorces (including e.g. somewhere in Siberia) or that Caucasian Muslim terrorists/seperatists want natural resources found in Russian part of Caucasus?

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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Lada » 2013-07-28, 16:12

No, I didn't mean anything like that, all I wanted to say about Islamic terrorists is that they want to create islamic state on the south of Russia.

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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Lietmotiv » 2013-07-28, 17:21

Saim wrote:If you look at the history of Muslim peoples in the Russian Federation, it's pretty clear that Islamism is just a form of extremism that reacts to the oppression that these ethnic groups have suffered under Russian rule.


Putin says that Islams is one of Russia's traditional religions. Durring USSR, the Orthodox church just as opressed like any other religion in the Soviet Union.

I suggest you to take a trip to Russia, see how Islamists live, especially in Moscow. They wouldn't leave Moscow for anything on Earth.
So your point is "Islamist is a form an extremism" which is a right one, since it reacts to oppression. Hitler also used to think that his actions are right, since he reacts the "Jewish oppression". For me, this is not an excuse.

That's the problem with Muslim ethnic minority groups - Islamism is an attractive, internationalist ideology that can turn essentially ethnic conflicts that could be solved

Look at islamist ideology in Europe, not only Russia - I see nothing internationalist in it

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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby linguoboy » 2013-07-28, 18:10

AndreiB wrote:So your point is "Islamist is a form an extremism" which is a right one, since it reacts to oppression. Hitler also used to think that his actions are right, since he reacts the "Jewish oppression". For me, this is not an excuse.

I was going to point out the difference between the delusions of a frothing racist demagogue and the actual documented oppression of those marginalised by military conquest, racism, and political favoritism, but then I realised that arguing with someone who falls back on Hitler analogies to demonise those he disagrees with is a clear waste of everyone's time.
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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Lietmotiv » 2013-07-28, 18:13

linguoboy wrote:
AndreiB wrote:So your point is "Islamist is a form an extremism" which is a right one, since it reacts to oppression. Hitler also used to think that his actions are right, since he reacts the "Jewish oppression". For me, this is not an excuse.

I was going to point out the difference between the delusions of a frothing racist demagogue and the actual documented oppression of those marginalised by military conquest, racism, and political favoritism, but then I realised that arguing with someone who falls back on Hitler analogies to demonise those he disagrees with is a clear waste of everyone's time.


My point is that extremism as a response to some kind of "oppression" is a pathetic excuse.

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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby linguoboy » 2013-07-28, 18:20

AndreiB wrote:My point is that extremism as a response to some kind of "oppression" is a pathetic excuse.

That's because you're apparently incapable of perceiving a difference between actual oppression and perceived "oppression".

It doesn't matter what Putin says about Islam when his policies are clearly discriminatory in favour of the Russian Orthodox Church. They may have suffered along with everyone else under the Soviets, but that situation has changed completely. Now they're quite happy to use the power of the state to suppress those they disagree with.
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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Lietmotiv » 2013-07-28, 19:31

linguoboy wrote:
It doesn't matter what Putin says about Islam when his policies are clearly discriminatory in favour of the Russian Orthodox Church.


Prove it. Orthodox believers say the opposite.
This is Moscow during a Muslim holiday.Do we see the same in New-York? I doubt it.
http://lenta.ru/news/2010/11/16/away/
http://rus.ruvr.ru/2012_08_19/Na-prazdn ... -musulman/

They may have suffered along with everyone else under the Soviets, but that situation has changed completely. Now they're quite happy to use the power of the state to suppress those they disagree with.

Western perception about Russia's internal affairs is built on what Western media writes and nothing more. Kinda the same like Russian perception about the West. This is a vicious circle.
What we see it's people standing if front of TV, saying "Russia is bad, Russia doesn't respect human rights", "Russia oppresses Islam" and so on. I really suggest these people to visit Russia.

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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-28, 21:46

So all those photos I saw the other day of gay people being beaten up by religious bigots while the police stood by and did nothing are fake, right? It must be part of a vast Western conspiracy to discredit the Putin regime so we can have their precious natural resources. I bet if linguoboy and his boyfriend wanted to make out in the middle of Red Square, nobody would bat an eye, because Russians are just a tolerant and liberal-minded people.

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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby linguoboy » 2013-07-29, 0:43

AndreiB wrote:Prove it. Orthodox believers say the opposite.

"Contrary to his international image as a progressive liberal, however, [Medvedev] granted the Patriarchate key concessions it had not
gained from Putin: the introduction of an Orthodox Culture course in state schools; military chaplaincy; and an improved mechanism for the restitution of historical religious property (see below). A concrete legal shift away from the 1993 Constitution's equality for all religious communities thus occurred under Medvedev rather than Putin
...
The overall trend in Russian religious affairs continues to be inconsistency. Official approaches vary between and even within different regions, as well as federal government institutions. Medvedev's presidency saw the transformation of a loose tendency to regard certain faith bodies as "traditional" into their formal state patronage to the exclusion of "non-traditional" groups. Newly elected President Putin appears unlikely to address the consequent deterioration in religious freedom."

(Source: http://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain?page=search&docid=5007f49d2&skip=0&query=religion&coi=RUS. Forum 18 is a highly-regarded international organisation that documents abuses of religious freedoms worldwide. Of course, you probably think they're biased because they aren't based in Russia. The Slavic Center for Law and Justice, on the other hand, is and it's documented the same sorts of abuses.)

AndreiB wrote:This is Moscow during a Muslim holiday.Do we see the same in New-York? I doubt it.

I don't even understand what you think you're proving with a couple of photographs. Moscow's practicing Muslim population is anywhere from twice to ten times the size of NYC's (depending whose estimates you believe). But, if it makes you happy, here's some footage of Eid al-Fitr celebrations in Dearborn, MI, the city with the highest proportion of Arab-Americans in the USA.

AndreiB wrote:Western perception about Russia's internal affairs is built on what Western media writes and nothing more. Kinda the same like Russian perception about the West. This is a vicious circle. What we see it's people standing if front of TV, saying "Russia is bad, Russia doesn't respect human rights", "Russia oppresses Islam" and so on. I really suggest these people to visit Russia.

Did you somehow miss the news that Russia authorities arrested four Dutch LGBT tourists in Murmansk under the new law banning "gay propaganda"? This is not exactly a good time for a gay man like me to be planning a trip to Russia.
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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Lietmotiv » 2013-07-29, 5:10

mōdgethanc wrote:So all those photos I saw the other day of gay people being beaten up by religious bigots while the police stood by and did nothing are fake, right?


We were talking about Islamic extremism, not about gay rights.

I bet if linguoboy and his boyfriend wanted to make out in the middle of Red Square, nobody would bat an eye, because Russians are just a tolerant and liberal-minded people.


Me, as a straight guy, wouldn't make out with my gf in the middle of Red Square, cause my home education taught me it's not nice to make up in public places, in front of everybody. So a small kiss on the lips would be enough.
What is the purpouse in making out in front of everybody, anyway? Don't people do that to draw attention?

So if you guys defend the Islamist out here, send 2 gays to Moscow, and then send them to Groznyi, or any Russian Muslim republic in the South. You'll find out who's more liberal.

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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Lada » 2013-07-29, 8:37

AndreiB wrote: So if you guys defend the Islamist out here, send 2 gays to Moscow, and then send them to Groznyi, or any Russian Muslim republic in the South. You'll find out who's more liberal.

Yeah, Russia oppresses poor Islamist, especially their traditions like shooting on the wedding day, kidnapping, beating girls without scarfs, killing girls if they have relations with non-muslim guys, selling illegitimate children, killing sheep in the center of Moscow etc. These traditions are pretty much alive in the 21st century and I will support any actions towards oppressing them.

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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Lietmotiv » 2013-07-29, 10:45

up
Last edited by Lietmotiv on 2013-07-29, 10:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best and worst neighbour

Postby Lietmotiv » 2013-07-29, 10:45

Lada wrote:Yeah, Russia oppresses poor Islamist, especially their traditions like shooting on the wedding day, kidnapping, beating girls without scarfs, killing girls if they have relations with non-muslim guys, selling illegitimate children, killing sheep in the center of Moscow etc. These traditions are pretty much alive in the 21st century and I will support any actions towards oppressing them.

Soon, Moscow will be like Rio de Janeiro or like Paris getto - Police won't enter these places, because it will be afraid.
"A policeman who was trying to arrest a Dagestani on a market in Moscow, charged for raping a 15 yo girl, gets beaten up by the rapist and his friends.
http://www.kp.ru/daily/26111/3007201/


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