Is it good to have a monarchy?

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Hoogstwaarschijnlijk
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-05-31, 10:06

JackFrost wrote:Oh, I already know. I just find it a bit hard to stop calling her queen. For Britain and others, she would have the title "Queen Mother" instead. :P


I don't think so, actually, because that's only when she would have had a husband who would have been king, right? Because I thought Queen Elisabeth can't retire, she needs to be queen until she dies, right? (I do think that that's a bit wrong, when someone has been queen or king for a few decades, she/he should be able to say: okay I feel like I'm too old now, go ahead child of mine, I'm going to retire now...)

Though I would have liked it to call Beatrix something like that, 'Queen mum' sounds nice :)


Anyway, I've seen our Koningin Maxima and Koning Willem-Alexander yesterday! It was pretty cool. They were sitting in a bus and they were nearly hitting us because the street was too small and Maxima looked very concerned at us, but in the end, when she saw we were okay she at us. It was nice.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Johanna » 2013-05-31, 21:02

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote: I thought Queen Elisabeth can't retire, she needs to be queen until she dies, right? (I do think that that's a bit wrong, when someone has been queen or king for a few decades, she/he should be able to say: okay I feel like I'm too old now, go ahead child of mine, I'm going to retire now...)

A regent can always abdicate, it's just that it's not very common to do so simply because you want to retire. Queen Elizabeth's uncle for example, Edward VIII, wanted to marry someone not fit to be queen according to the standards back then (to put it mildly) so he abdicated less than a year after becoming king.

Actually, I think your two former queens are the only ones in the history of Europe to have done so, abdicated because they wanted to retire I mean.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby JackFrost » 2013-05-31, 21:29

Yeah, because she has a hard feeling about her uncle's abdication and doesn't wish to follow that precedent. It really ruined her father since he wasn't really prepped to be king, so it's understandable why she's like that.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Johanna » 2013-05-31, 21:53

JackFrost wrote:Yeah, because she has a hard feeling about her uncle's abdication and doesn't wish to follow that precedent. It really ruined her father since he wasn't really prepped to be king, so it's understandable why she's like that.

And she's one of the most popular European monarchs for the past 100 years. Also her heir apparent is less liked than both her herself and his eldest son (who's already old enough to take the throne without being that young of a king), so staying for at least a few more years could also resolve a controversy in that department, if Prince Charles feels that he's too old to become king by then.

Here it's kind of the opposite, our crown princess is by far the most popular member of the royal family, so most people want her to take over pretty soon, preferably before she turns 40. Except the republicans, since it's easier to fight a king that people feel is like 'meh' than his tremendously liked oldest daughter :P
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2013-06-01, 4:00

Johanna wrote:Also her hair apparent is less liked

Her hair is less liked? :silly: :rotfl:

Johanna wrote:it's easier to fight a king that people feel is like 'meh' than his tremendously liked oldest daughter

He was rather popular in the 1970s, when he was in her age, so her popularity might change.

Johanna wrote:is less liked than both her herself and his eldest son

At least Charles has spoken out against bad building projects. :y: Have either of the other two (his mother and his eldest son) done anything whatsoever in any similar cases?
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Car » 2013-06-01, 13:43

Johanna wrote:
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote: I thought Queen Elisabeth can't retire, she needs to be queen until she dies, right? (I do think that that's a bit wrong, when someone has been queen or king for a few decades, she/he should be able to say: okay I feel like I'm too old now, go ahead child of mine, I'm going to retire now...)

A regent can always abdicate, it's just that it's not very common to do so simply because you want to retire. Queen Elizabeth's uncle for example, Edward VIII, wanted to marry someone not fit to be queen according to the standards back then (to put it mildly) so he abdicated less than a year after becoming king.


That reason is questioned nowadays:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2074100.stm
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2013-06-01, 14:29

Car wrote:That reason is questioned nowadays:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2074100.stm

There was no war with Germany in 1937.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

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(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet, och har gett upp mejeriprodukter.)

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby JackFrost » 2013-06-01, 17:31

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:
Car wrote:That reason is questioned nowadays:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2074100.stm

There was no war with Germany in 1937.

1936.

I don't think it's relevant whether there was war or not at that time. Germany was run by those bastards then and had the tools to spy on other nations, so I don't blame Britain wanting to protect itself if that were to be the real reason why he quit.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Jurgen Wullenwever » 2013-06-01, 22:30

Could this be a reason for Charles not becoming king until Andrew Parker Bowles has died?

Edward must have gotten on the wrong foot in this case. Henry II is regarded by some people as the greatest king of England, and he married the divorced heiress to Aquitaine, who had been married to the French king, so obviously this was possible for an English king, but 20th century Anglicans might be more pecky than 12th century Catholics.
Chekhov wrote:I don't know about naive worldviews, but Jurgen Wullenwhatever pisses me off to no end because of his extreme pessimism and cynicism. You'd think the world was going to end imminently when talking to that guy.

Jag är rebell: jag sockrar teet, saltar maten, cyklar utan hjälm, och tänder glödlampor.
(Ovanstående var förut, nu försöker jag minska sockret och saltet, och har gett upp mejeriprodukter.)

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Johanna » 2013-06-01, 22:50

Car wrote:That reason is questioned nowadays:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2074100.stm

It was still about her being deemed unfit to become the queen of the UK, just a different reason than merely being divorced twice ;)

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Edward must have gotten on the wrong foot in this case. Henry II is regarded by some people as the greatest king of England, and he married the divorced heiress to Aquitaine, who had been married to the French king, so obviously this was possible for an English king, but 20th century Anglicans might be more pecky than 12th century Catholics.

If the Nazi thing is true it's a lot more understandable than the official story though...
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby JackFrost » 2013-06-02, 3:08

Jurgen Wullenwever wrote:Could this be a reason for Charles not becoming king until Andrew Parker Bowles has died?

huh? I can't see that happening. Edward VIII married while no longer being king. Charles, however, got the Queen's and her cabinet's blessing. The marriage is basically valid and the church can't do much about it. The prohibition only applies for church marriages, not civil ones.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Car » 2013-06-02, 11:04

Johanna wrote:
Car wrote:That reason is questioned nowadays:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2074100.stm

It was still about her being deemed unfit to become the queen of the UK, just a different reason than merely being divorced twice ;)


Except that there also are rumours that even he collaborated with the nazis later on and tried to come back to the throne when in exile. I once saw a documentary on TV about that, but I don't know what it's called.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Spaigelploatje » 2013-06-02, 19:05

Johanna wrote:
Actually, I think your two former queens are the only ones in the history of Europe to have done so, abdicated because they wanted to retire I mean.

Three queens in a row ;).
Wilhelmina in 1948
Juliana in 1980
Beatrix in 2013

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-03, 23:42

I don't see what's good about having an anachronistic, money-sucking, scandal-prone, non democratically elected institution, apart from the fact that it gives a lot of work to gossip magazines and serves as a brand for tacky mugs and plates... :roll:

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Marah » 2013-07-04, 17:59

apart from the fact that it gives a lot of work to gossip magazines

Tell me about it. It's everywhere in Spain. I find it so annoying...
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-04, 18:48

Marah wrote:
apart from the fact that it gives a lot of work to gossip magazines

Tell me about it. It's everywhere in Spain. I find it so annoying...


Well, for instance we were bombarded of news concerning the so-called "marriage of the century" [the one between Kate and don't recall the name of the prince because I don't give two fucks about that :roll: ].

The British royal family is the most fashionable one, every bullshit that William (the younger one, not sure his name is Wiliam) does gets immeditely reported, not to mention Pippa's back, Kate's tits, the outrage of her Majesty, Charles, Camilla and so on and so forth.

The other monarchies aren't so covered by media except for when something really important or grave happens, I remember for example a scandal involving the Swedish king, drug and prostitutes, if I'm not wrong.

Then we have our own royal family that thank God is just a folkloric thing with no power whatsoever (I'm glad to live in a Republic). Sometimes we get to hear about them too. Prince Filiberto has become a presenter of trashy programmes and his father has become one of the most unpopular people in the country for having jeered Sardinian people... Oh and on top of that they wanted to be refunded for the exile. Just one word... lol.

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Vertigo » 2013-07-06, 0:12

meidei wrote:No, it's not necessary, but Britain and Japan only considered it when they were afraid there wouldn't be a male heir, and promptly forgot about it when one finally was born.


For what it's worth, the UK formally abolished primogeniture last year. So whatever the gender of the next child to get popped out it'll be next in line either way.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Successio ... n_Act_2013)

And in terms of national 'symbols', I think we'd be better served by something that represents our commonality/fraternity than a 1000 year old institution symbolic of horrific inequality and colonial oppression. Tourism be damned.

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-07-06, 12:07

IpseDixit wrote:I don't see what's good about having an anachronistic, money-sucking, scandal-prone, non democratically elected institution, apart from the fact that it gives a lot of work to gossip magazines and serves as a brand for tacky mugs and plates... :roll:

No, I'd really rather have the possibility to have presidents like Berlusconi :wink:
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-06, 12:51

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:I don't see what's good about having an anachronistic, money-sucking, scandal-prone, non democratically elected institution, apart from the fact that it gives a lot of work to gossip magazines and serves as a brand for tacky mugs and plates... :roll:

No, I'd really rather have the possibility to have presidents like Berlusconi :wink:


He was democratically elected. Whether one likes it or not. This means that a conspicuous number of Italians wanted him. Can you see the difference? :wink:

And since he was democratically elected, he could also be democratically toppled.

Moreover the President of Italy has never been Berlusconi ;) he was the prime minister. The President is instead Giorgio Napolitano.

Nowadays Mr. Berlusconi's popularity seems to be quite low. Thus making it very difficult for him to become prime minister again rebus sic stantibus, another upside of democratic institutions. Moreover, we won't necessarily have to be ruled by his offspring...

Oh, and Berlusconi is an entrepreneur, he made his fortune by working, not sitting on a throne and living off the taxes that other people have to pay him.

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-07-06, 13:12

I see. (What I really don't get about a republic is that you have a prime-minister and a president, I can never understand the difference :oops: )



A monarchy can of course be democratically be toppled as well, by the way.
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