Is it good to have a monarchy?

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dorenda
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby dorenda » 2013-05-27, 20:24

meidei wrote:It is the enemy of merit and aspiration
It devalues intellect and achievement
Could you (or someone else) elaborate on this?

meidei wrote:That the first-born will be the heir, even if female.
It's like that in the Netherlands. The only gender-discriminative thing is that the king's wife is called queen, but the queen's husband is not called king, if you get what I mean. I don't know how it would work in the case that the queen/king would be lesbian/gay... :)

meidei wrote:
While there's no majority for any political party, so when we'd have a president less people would feel presented by him (... her).

I am not sure about the political system in the Netherlands. You have a Prime Minister elected by the parliament, like Greece?
Our prime minister is the head of the biggest party. Of course they always seek to form a coalition in order to get a majority.

meidei wrote:And even then, s/he'll have to respect the Parliament. The government runs the country, but the parliament drafts the framework in which the government is free to act. And the parliament represents more diverse political opinions, so overall, it does represent the people much better than a monarch would ever will (and that's why so many countries revolted against them in the first place).
Hey, it's not like our king/queen runs the country! :) It's still the government that does this. Okay, the king is part of the government officially, but in practice he doesn't exert a lot of influence. And I don't think the Netherlands are the only country where the king/queen has about the same amount of influence.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby md0 » 2013-05-27, 20:40

Could you (or someone else) elaborate on this?

Follow the wikipedia link, it does elaborate on all arguments, for and against (in the context of the UK of course).

Hey, it's not like our king/queen runs the country!

No one denies that under normal circumstances they don't do much. No-one calls Elisabeth or Máxima tyrants either. But grown up countries don't need them. And of course it's up to the Brits and the Dutch to decide how long are they going to keep them.

But they also keep powers that they could use and that could circumvent democracy. The former king of Greece is no stranger to anti-democratic coups and dissolving the parliament on a whim, for example. So finally people got rid of him... And then he come back to power with another coup (the military took over the free republic with a coup, and then the king coup'd the military dictatorship and imposed his kingdom again. Then in 1974 they finally all went to hell at the cost of making Cyprus an even huge mess than it was before :roll: )
There's a different kind of pressure put on an elected president when it comes to circumventing the parliament.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Lur » 2013-05-27, 21:08

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Johanna » 2013-05-27, 21:42


:shock: :cry:

I don't think our king would dare to do something like that, not these days.

I don't much care when it comes to the practical thing of it, but the whole inheritance thing bugs me. Maybe a system like we had in medieval times would be nice, where you elect a monarch and he or she stays in office until retirement?

Like a mix between our regent (no power whatsoever, stays until death or abdication, nice PR person) and a democratically elected president.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Lur » 2013-05-28, 2:20

Like a simple representative of the State, you mean? An ambassador figure, without all the pompous royal circumstance. Pretty affordable, by comparison. I guess that without the inheritance by right of blood it doesn't alienate the population as much.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-05-28, 7:00

Luke wrote:Like a simple representative of the State, you mean? An ambassador figure, without all the pompous royal circumstance. Pretty affordable, by comparison. I guess that without the inheritance by right of blood it doesn't alienate the population as much.

But people like the pompous royal circumstance. Also in Sweden, bookshops there were selling lots and lots of books about the royal family, it seemed quite popular there! I think a royal family doesn't alienate the population, on the contrary, most people feel bonded by them, they make them feel more a part of their country. Which is important because (nowadays) no one feels any connection with the politics, so a president wouldn't be able to do this, I think.

meidei wrote:No one denies that under normal circumstances they don't do much. No-one calls Elisabeth or Máxima tyrants either. But grown up countries don't need them. And of course it's up to the Brits and the Dutch to decide how long are they going to keep them.

But they also keep powers that they could use and that could circumvent democracy.


Well, our monarchy is quite young, I hope we'll keep this system for at least another century. But at least it doesn't seem like we're going to change it, the only thing is that they may get rid of all the political influence. Which I would find a pity, but okay, then it's just a symbolic king.
Anyway, the king in Belgium has used these powers a few years ago after the elections, when they were struggling and struggling to get a government and they wanted to have new elections and the king said: 'No, go on struggling a bit longer!', well, I think a lot of people were glad about that, because they were quite tired of having no (national) government at all!

We may not need them but we like them. If we wouldn't have a royal family, God knows who people choose to adore. I rather have someone who has learnt how to do this than some stupid singer or something like that.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Spaigelploatje » 2013-05-28, 9:12

Marah wrote:What about the 825 000€ they earn per year? :?
Hell, they don't even pay taxes...

Still electing a president is extremely expensive as well. I prefer the constant factor that a king/queen has.
This constant factor shows to other country leaders what the Dutch opinion is, and it doesn't change from left to right wing like with a president. The fact that they've no privacy, have to talk to many important persons businesses etc justifies their wage imo.
Marah wrote:
And it's only fair that they earn quite some money when you think about what they need to do.

The Queen is a billionaire, they're probably one of the richest families in the world, giving them a salary is a joke if you ask me.

And I'm pretty sure that when the country needs it, she'll spend her money ON the country.

The cost of a monarchy is not much more than a republic.
I mean, look at Germany or the USA. The president AND all living ex-presidents receive a wage. In the case of Germany this means that:
Roman Herzog
Horst Köhler
Christian Wulff
Richard von Weizsäcker
Walter Scheel

also receive money from the state, next to the current president Joachim Gauck. I know Horst Köhler receives €17,500 per month for being ex-president.
http://www.rp-online.de/politik/deutsch ... -1.2294057
Trotz seines Rücktritts steht ihm - wie allen anderen ehemaligen Bundespräsidenten - ein monatliches "Ehrensold" von 17.500 Euro zu. Pro Jahr liegen die Präsidentenbezüge nach der Beamtenbesoldung derzeit bei 200.000 Euro. Auch eine Aufwandsentschädigung erhält er - 78.000 Euro jährlich für die Bezahlung von Hauspersonal.

So is it much cheaper to have a president?? I don't think so.. let alone all elections, security measures for all the presidents etc etc.
So 5 ex-presidents receive €200,000 per year. Lol.
JackFrost wrote:False. Pretty much all of her lands and possessions are under public trust. She can borrow them for official uses, but she cannot use them personally or sell them for profit. That's why they have to give her money to maintain the palaces and to carry out official functions because she doesn't really have that much to afford them herself.

Oh yeah, she pays income tax, mind you.


She meant the Dutch queen/king. The Dutch king or queen doesn't pay income taxes.. And tbh, why would you add another expensive layer of crap in the system? He gets paid from taxes, so why would you tax the taxes?? That's just another layer of management crap which only costs money.

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Levo » 2013-05-28, 12:13

Bocsánat, hogy ezt mondom, de borzalmasan nevetségesnek tartanám, hogy épp Románia királyt ültessen a trónjára, legyen az bármilyen formális is.

Kb olyan, mint Aradon a 15 darab kék-sárga-piros zászló egy sima kormányzati épületen. Szánalmas és nevetséges. Csak a saját bezártságukat, szűklátókörűségüket, szegénységüket és nacionalizmusokat bizonyítja. Egy királyválasztás csak ezt tetézné. De ez csak az én véleményem.


I'm sorry to say that but I'd find it ultimately ridiculuos if a country like Romania would set a king to its throne, regardless how formal and powerless it would be.

I could compare it to the 15 pieces of blue-yellow-red tricolor flags on a plain governmental building in Arad. Pathetic and ridiculous. It only proves their narrow-mindedness, their remoteness, their poverty and their nationalism. Choosing a king to reign would be just an addition to this. But this is only my opinion.

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Levike » 2013-05-28, 12:56


Én pont azért szeretnék egy királyt amiért Hollandiának vagy Svédországnak is van.
És egy új királyt meg nem kellene választanunk, mert az utolsó még most is él.
Az elég lenne, hogy elismerjük őt újra mint király,
anélkül, hogy egy óriás fizetést adjunk neki.
Csak mint egy egyesítő történelmi jelkép.


Personally I would like to have a king for the same reason Sweden has.
And our last king is still alive so we don't have to choose a new one.
It would be enough to aknowledge him as king (again),
without giving him some kind of job or a huge salary.
As a historical figure to bind us.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Marah » 2013-05-28, 14:30

False. Pretty much all of her lands and possessions are under public trust. She can borrow them for official uses, but she cannot use them personally or sell them for profit. That's why they have to give her money to maintain the palaces and to carry out official functions because she doesn't really have that much to afford them herself.

Oh yeah, she pays income tax, mind you.

I was talking about Beatrix actually!

So is it much cheaper to have a president?? I don't think so.. let alone all elections, security measures for all the presidents etc etc.
So 5 ex-presidents receive €200,000 per year. Lol.

I agree with you when you say that presidents have high wages. I don't think they should be so high. They should serve their countries, not themselves.
But hey, a fundamental difference is that a president is elected...
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Spaigelploatje » 2013-05-28, 14:58

Marah wrote:I agree with you when you say that presidents have high wages. I don't think they should be so high. They should serve their countries, not themselves.
But hey, a fundamental difference is that a president is elected...

Still 5 ex-presidents, €200,000 each
1 is still president, €1,000,000 (according to a certain source) http://www.der-bundespraesident.de/das- ... asidenten/
Für die Ausübung dieses oftmals schweren Amtes erhält der Bundespräsident ein Einkommen in Höhe von 10/9 des Amtsgehalts der Bundeskanzlerin. Diese Amtsbezüge werden jedes Jahr im Staatshaushalt festgelegt und betragen momentan etwa 200.000 Euro im Jahr. Zusätzlich zu diesen Amtsbezügen erhält der Bundespräsident auch eine Art Aufwandsentschädigung von nochmals etwa 800.000 Euro im Jahr.

Total:
€2,000,000 per year, just because you have 5 ex-presidents and 1 current president.

That's more than King W-A receives..

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Marah » 2013-05-28, 15:17

Yes it's fucked up if you ask me, but hey kings and queens haven't done anything so special to deserve it. They've been privileged for centuries.
Sure, you could say they give money to charitable organizations and whatnot but I don't think it's such a big sacrifice when you have millions/billions. More often than not they do it because they want people to see that they're so generous.
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Spaigelploatje » 2013-05-28, 15:36

Marah wrote:Yes it's fucked up if you ask me, but hey kings and queens haven't done anything so special to deserve it. They've been privileged for centuries.
Sure, you could say they give money to charitable organizations and whatnot but I don't think it's such a big sacrifice when you have millions/billions. More often than not they do it because they want people to see that they're so generous.

That's not even the point. And tbh, I don't really care whether they give to charitable organization or not. I think it's more important that they serve the country. Something Juliana and Beatrix have done very wel..

I think because a king shows being a stable business partner compared to a president, a king can get deals done easier. Especially in the Middle East or Thailand where kings are rated 'higher' than presidents.
Except for that a monarchy is a nice export product. many people want to know things about monarchs and bring money into our country. Like our royal family has a lot of German 'fans'. i don't see those fans existing for Joachim Gauck. Many people are interested in the UK or Sweden because they have a monarch. I think you should not underestimate the impact of having a -popular- monarch has on the income of a country.

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Marah » 2013-05-28, 15:48

Especially in the Middle East or Thailand where kings are rated 'higher' than presidents.

It stands to reason since they have political power.

Except for that a monarchy is a nice export product. many people want to know things about monarchs and bring money into our country. Like our royal family has a lot of German 'fans'. i don't see those fans existing for Joachim Gauck. Many people are interested in the UK or Sweden because they have a monarch. I think you should not underestimate the impact of having a -popular- monarch has on the income of a country.

That's a fair argument. Personally I don't think it's moral to be a king, we're all supposed to be equals. So I don't think having an economical impact can compensate for it.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby JackFrost » 2013-05-28, 17:56

Luke wrote:His job done... yes... but his job has been done for decades, why's he still king? :roll:

Well, continue to be for abolishing the institution and hope the other Spaniards will have enough momentum to achieve that with you. Basically, it's up to you guys, not me. :P

Marah wrote:I was talking about Beatrix actually!

Oops. :oops: When I see "the Queen" (note the capitalization), I automatically think of my queen (sorta).
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-05-28, 18:12

That's okay Jack, Beatrix is a princess again, we have King Willem-Alexander now!
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby JackFrost » 2013-05-28, 18:17

Oh, I already know. I just find it a bit hard to stop calling her queen. For Britain and others, she would have the title "Queen Mother" instead. :P
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Tenebrarum » 2013-05-28, 18:23

JackFrost wrote:When I see "the Queen" (note the capitalization), I automatically think of my queen (sorta).

Oh, you see yourself as a Canuck (sorta) now. :lol:
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby md0 » 2013-05-28, 18:52

I think because a king shows being a stable business partner compared to a president, a king can get deals done easier. Especially in the Middle East or Thailand where kings are rated 'higher' than presidents.

Now that you mention it, Cyprus has its king in a way. And he is indirectly elected* for life. He has pretty much the powers of a president (some de jure, some de facto) and all he talks about is doing business with Russian and Qatari oligarchs using people's money, and he says the People love him and the country absolutely needs him so he will not stop being involved in politics.
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Needless to say, I feel even worse about monarchy know that I've made this link.
Does too much democracy gets boring after a while? I mean, even the Greeks that where under a military dictatorship with a king as the head of state as recently as 1974, and today they vote Golden Dawn by massive numbers, and 1 in 3 believes that a military dictatorship wouldn't be as bad :shock: The hell? Do they not read history at all? Am I just so privileged to witness the results of the last Greek dictatorship when I step out of my town? (I live pretty near to the DMZ). Nothing in Greece reminds them of the pre-restoration regime?

*He was elected with 8% of the votes. Don't ask me how he did it. No one knows.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby dorenda » 2013-05-28, 21:32

meidei wrote:
Could you (or someone else) elaborate on this?

Follow the wikipedia link, it does elaborate on all arguments, for and against (in the context of the UK of course).
Sorry, I didn't read it. But now I did. I still fail to see, though, how one position in the whole country not being "open to free and fair competition" would really have much effect on "merit and aspiration" in the whole rest of society. And even though members of the royal family may get unearned symbols of achievement (I don't know how much this is the case in other royal families as well), I don't see how these few people getting them unearned would really influence the meaning of those symbols for the rest of the millions of inhabitants, who do have to earn them... To me it seems the people who made up these arguments are greatly exaggerating.
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