Is it good to have a monarchy?

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby JackFrost » 2013-05-27, 4:32

mōdgethanc wrote:"Could've been" is meaningless. He was not Franco Jr. and it doesn't do anyone any favours to pretend he was.

Fine. Lemme reword it. He didn't do what Franco had expected of him. And I don't mean a little change here and there, but an immediate change to restoring democracy.


idk I just give him credit for that, k?
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-05-27, 5:53

JackFrost wrote:Fine. Lemme reword it. He didn't do what Franco had expected of him. And I don't mean a little change here and there, but an immediate change to restoring democracy.


idk I just give him credit for that, k?
Wait, are we still talking about Aznar?

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-05-27, 11:22

Marah wrote:What about the 825 000€ they earn per year? :?
Hell, they don't even pay taxes...


While I do think that it could/should be less, this wasn't actually what I was getting at when I said I considered monarchy rationally as somewhat wrong. I mean, they are the king and the queen, I don't mind that they are rich, to me, it seems they are supposed to be the richest of the country. And it's only fair that they earn quite some money when you think about what they need to do. That's what I think is a bit wrong about monarchy, you say to a child of five year old or so: 'And when you're a big girl, you'll be queen, so please be careful how you act. Now and always.' They don't have privacy at all, so let's just give them at least enough money to get nice clothes and a nice place to live.


Apparently our new king and queen will visit my city this Thursday. I'm trying to find out when they'll be here because it would be so much fun to see them irl :D
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby JackFrost » 2013-05-27, 14:42

mōdgethanc wrote:Wait, are we still talking about Aznar?

No, the king.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Lur » 2013-05-27, 15:51

Fuck the king. We don't need him.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Marah » 2013-05-27, 16:46

And it's only fair that they earn quite some money when you think about what they need to do.

The Queen is a billionaire, they're probably one of the richest families in the world, giving them a salary is a joke if you ask me.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-05-27, 16:58

Marah wrote:
And it's only fair that they earn quite some money when you think about what they need to do.

The Queen is a billionaire, they're probably one of the richest families in the world, giving them a salary is a joke if you ask me.


I don't really care though :) If that's what we need to pay for having a monarchy, so be it. They give us much in return.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby md0 » 2013-05-27, 17:08

That's what I think is a bit wrong about monarchy, you say to a child of five year old or so: 'And when you're a big girl, you'll be queen, so please be careful how you act. Now and always.' They don't have privacy at all

That's one of the arguments against monarchy brought forward by British Republicans. Others are:

Monarchy contradicts democracy
-Monarchy denies the people a basic right – Republicans believe that it should be a fundamental right of the people of any nation to elect their head of state and for every citizen to be eligible to hold that office.
-Monarchy devalues a parliamentary system – Monarchical prerogative powers can be used to circumvent normal democratic process with no accountability
Monarchy is gender-discriminative
A monarchy demands deference
It is the enemy of merit and aspiration
It devalues intellect and achievement
It harms the monarchs themselves <- here it is
Monarchs are not impartial, and lack accountability
The monarchy is expensive
The monarchy makes the UK appear 'backward' (Although that's not as strong an argument as the rest)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Rep ... a_republic


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Fun fact: The directly elected President of the French Republic... becomes the co-monarch of Andorra :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra#Politics
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-05-27, 17:25

meidei wrote:Monarchy is gender-discriminative


Not necessarily, why would it be, I wonder..?

Monarchs are not impartial, and lack accountability


That's a weird argument, because presidents are from a political party, aren't they? So they are definately more partial, I assume.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby md0 » 2013-05-27, 17:37

Not necessarily, why would it be, I wonder..?

No, it's not necessary, but Britain and Japan only considered it when they were afraid there wouldn't be a male heir, and promptly forgot about it when one finally was born.

That's a weird argument, because presidents are from a political party, aren't they? So they are definately more partial, I assume.

Presidents are elected though. People choose directly* who they want as their President. Monarchs just "are". And presidents don't get to simply disregard the Parliament (which represents more people than simply the majority) without a really good reason (unless they want to provoke a civil war, which most of the time, they don't).

*In most democracies. You do have weird inventions like the US presidential election system, and parliamentary democracies like Greece's which don't always give people who lost the popular vote the right to become presidents, but they do make it possible.
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Lur » 2013-05-27, 17:43

meidei wrote:Fun fact: The directly elected President of the French Republic... becomes the co-monarch of Andorra :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra#Politics

I would integrate Andorra in Catalunya but I don't think the French would approve. :lol:
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Marah » 2013-05-27, 17:52

I don't think the Andorrans themselves would approve. How could they sell their cigarettes/alcohol/ gas then? :P
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Lur » 2013-05-27, 17:56

Yeah.

Plus, the name Andorra looks suspiciously Basque anyway :twisted:
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-05-27, 17:59

JackFrost wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:Wait, are we still talking about Aznar?

No, the king.
I'm confused. I thought Luke was talking about Aznar being Franco Jr., and I was telling him that's ridiculous. I think I already said I respect the king a lot for going straight to democracy after the Generalísimo kicked the bucket. As for Aznar, I wouldn't say I respect him, but he's hardly a fascist pig.

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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Marah » 2013-05-27, 18:24

Plus, the name Andorra looks suspiciously Basque anyway

It could come from "Ameturra" apparently! But I guess andurrial is a pretty good hypothesis too
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-05-27, 18:30

meidei wrote:
Not necessarily, why would it be, I wonder..?

No, it's not necessary, but Britain and Japan only considered it when they were afraid there wouldn't be a male heir, and promptly forgot about it when one finally was born.

That's a weird argument, because presidents are from a political party, aren't they? So they are definately more partial, I assume.

Presidents are elected though. People choose directly* who they want as their President. Monarchs just "are".

Yes, but that's a plus, in my opinion. I think most people in the Netherlands like their king. I don't know exactly but I guess at least a majority (what I do know is that the majority in the Netherlands prefer to have a monarchy/ to keep the system the way it is now). While there's no majority for any political party, so when we'd have a president less people would feel presented by him (... her).

I don't understand that first comment, what did Britain and Japan consider?
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby md0 » 2013-05-27, 18:44

I don't understand that first comment, what did Britain and Japan consider?

That the first-born will be the heir, even if female.
think most people in the Netherlands like their king.

I am sure they do. Especially in western monarchies like the UK and the Netherlands I don't doubt that they sincerely love their kings and queens (you don't put to death people who disrespect the king for one so I don't think it's out of fear/conditioning).
But the arguments still stand, I believe. As you guys said, you are emotionally approving of it, not rationally.
While there's no majority for any political party, so when we'd have a president less people would feel presented by him (... her).

I am not sure about the political system in the Netherlands. You have a Prime Minister elected by the parliament, like Greece?

A President (an actual president, not a decorative one), would seek a majority to rule. If the party s/he comes from is not enough to elect a president, s/he'll seek to form a coalition by making compromises to represent more people and win a majority. And even then, s/he'll have to respect the Parliament. The government runs the country, but the parliament drafts the framework in which the government is free to act. And the parliament represents more diverse political opinions, so overall, it does represent the people much better than a monarch would ever will (and that's why so many countries revolted against them in the first place).
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby JackFrost » 2013-05-27, 19:46

mōdgethanc wrote:
JackFrost wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:Wait, are we still talking about Aznar?

No, the king.
I'm confused. I thought Luke was talking about Aznar being Franco Jr., and I was telling him that's ridiculous. I think I already said I respect the king a lot for going straight to democracy after the Generalísimo kicked the bucket. As for Aznar, I wouldn't say I respect him, but he's hardly a fascist pig.

I am not talking about Aznar at all. Franco personally groomed the then-prince to be his successor, despite some doubts about him. Aznar was basically 20-something when that guy died and had nothing to do with him, apart from family connections to the regime.

We're already agreeing with each other. My bad if I wasn't too clear since I was too busy in the past five days (my mom came to see me and stayed over for some time).

meidei wrote:That the first-born will be the heir, even if female.

It just changed now. Sex doesn't matter anymore for Britain and the countries that share the same person.

Marah wrote:The Queen is a billionaire, they're probably one of the richest families in the world, giving them a salary is a joke if you ask me.

False. Pretty much all of her lands and possessions are under public trust. She can borrow them for official uses, but she cannot use them personally or sell them for profit. That's why they have to give her money to maintain the palaces and to carry out official functions because she doesn't really have that much to afford them herself.

Oh yeah, she pays income tax, mind you.

Luke wrote:Fuck the king. We don't need him.

If you had read my previous post, I already said "now his job is done".
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Lur » 2013-05-27, 19:53

I wasn't talking to you but to myself :lol:

His job done... yes... but his job has been done for decades, why's he still king? :roll:
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Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby md0 » 2013-05-27, 19:55

It just changed now. Sex doesn't matter anymore for Britain and the countries that share the same person.

Oh, I was under the impression it went the same way as Japan. The proposal was withdrawn there.
Oh yeah, she pays income tax, mind you.

Indeed. That's an argument used by people who don't object to British monarchy. She actually pays a lot of taxes. But this money will not disappear if UK becomes a republic either.
[youtube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhyYgnhhKFw[/youtube]

They are more objections to monarchy than the cost.
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