Is it good to have a monarchy?

This forum is the place to have more serious discussions about politics and religion, and your opinions thereof. Be courteous!

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Forum rules
When a registered user insults another person (user or not), nation, political group or religious group, s/he will be deprived of her/his permission to post in the forum. That user has the right to re-register one week after s/he has lost the permission. Further violations will result in longer prohibitions.

By default, you are automatically registered to post in this forum. However, users cannot post in the politics forum during the first week after registration. Users can also not make their very first post in the politics forum.
IpseDixit

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-06, 13:36

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:I see. (What I really don't get about a republic is that you have a prime-minister and a president, I can never understand the difference :oops: )


It depends on the type of Republic. Italy is a Parliamentary Republic. The prime Minister is the head of the Government, which controls the executive power. The Parliament makes laws. Usually the majority of the Parliament consists of the party of the Government. The Government per se does not have the power to make laws, there are just few exceptions allowed by the Constitution.

The President of the Republic represents the country. He or she is the highest role in the State, controls the health of the Republic, has the veto on certain laws and under certain circumstances (quite limited actually), and more importantly he/she can dissolve the Parliament and announce new elections if circumstances or the Parliament itself require that.

The powers of the President, in ordinary times, are rather limited and his role is especially representative and of moral suasion.

Presidential and semi-presidential Republics work differently.

Hope it is clear even though I have some doubts x-)

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:A monarchy can of course be democratically be toppled as well, by the way.


How?

IpseDixit

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-06, 13:54

And on a final note: I'm pretty sure that 99% of the countries (both Republics and Monarchies) have had at least one shitty president or prime minister... Just look at the USA which elected George Bush twice, the UK which elected Margaret Thatcher twice or Israel that elected a prime minister who is by many considered a terrorist (Menachem Begin)... not to mention Germany that elected... Adolf Hitler (unlike Italy where Mussolini took power through a coup d'état).
Last edited by IpseDixit on 2013-07-06, 15:08, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Lazar Taxon
Posts: 1570
Joined: 2007-10-07, 8:00
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2013-07-06, 13:57

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:I see. (What I really don't get about a republic is that you have a prime-minister and a president, I can never understand the difference :oops: )
What IpseDixit said, and I would add that a parliamentary republic is basically an uncrowned constitutional monarchy - the president serves the role of the monarch, holding some reserve powers but mostly just acting as a figurehead. The world's "older" republics (like the US, the Latin American nations and Switzerland) tend to lack prime ministers because the head of state/head of government distinction wasn't so firmly established when they were created.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag] Good: [flag=]es[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] Okay: [flag=]de[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Beginning: [flag=]it[/flag] Interested in: [flag=]he[/flag] [flag=]hi[/flag] [flag=]ru[/flag]

Today we are cats in the apocalypse!

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10669
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-06, 17:07

It's only in semi-presidential republics that the president is mostly a figurehead. In presidential republics like the United States, the president wields a lot of executive power.

User avatar
JackFrost
Forum Administrator
Posts: 16240
Joined: 2004-11-08, 21:00
Real Name: Jack Frost
Gender: male
Location: Montréal, Québec
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby JackFrost » 2013-07-06, 17:15

IpseDixit wrote:
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:A monarchy can of course be democratically be toppled as well, by the way.

How?

For countries that have the Westminster form of government, there are provisions allowing to alter the monarch's role, so legally, they can be used to abolish the position. It's rather unusual that a monarch cannot be democratically usurped since there are only a handful of absolute monarchs left in the world. To overthrow the Saudi king, the assembly, tribes, and people would have to claim real powers over him and hope it would be enough to make him think he has no other choices. Otherwise, it could get bloody, which is rather unthinkable for Canada, Britain, the Netherlands, etc. :wink:

For example, Britain and other countries told Edward VIII to kindly take a hike. They could do that again if they ever find a reason why Charles or William cannot serve as their king since their right to throne is defined by acts of parliament.

In presidential republics like the United States, the president wields a lot of executive power.

More like all the executive power.
Neferuj paħujkij!

User avatar
Lazar Taxon
Posts: 1570
Joined: 2007-10-07, 8:00
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2013-07-06, 17:24

mōdgethanc wrote:It's only in semi-presidential republics that the president is mostly a figurehead.
You mean parliamentary. Semi-presidential republics are ones like France where the president and PM both have substantial power.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag] Good: [flag=]es[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] Okay: [flag=]de[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Beginning: [flag=]it[/flag] Interested in: [flag=]he[/flag] [flag=]hi[/flag] [flag=]ru[/flag]

Today we are cats in the apocalypse!

IpseDixit

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-06, 21:04

JackFrost wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:A monarchy can of course be democratically be toppled as well, by the way.

How?

For countries that have the Westminster form of government, there are provisions allowing to alter the monarch's role, so legally, they can be used to abolish the position. It's rather unusual that a monarch cannot be democratically usurped since there are only a handful of absolute monarchs left in the world. To overthrow the Saudi king, the assembly, tribes, and people would have to claim real powers over him and hope it would be enough to make him think he has no other choices. Otherwise, it could get bloody, which is rather unthinkable for Canada, Britain, the Netherlands, etc. :wink:

For example, Britain and other countries told Edward VIII to kindly take a hike. They could do that again if they ever find a reason why Charles or William cannot serve as their king since their right to throne is defined by acts of parliament.


Yeah probably I didn't express myself very well on that point. I rather meant to say that turnover is an ordinary thing in a republic, in a monarchy it is not, a person could see the same head of state for their entire lifetime.

Moreover I brought up the toppling thing because Hoog made the very dumb and wrong example of Berlusconi (please, don't get me wrong Hoog, I'm not saying you're dumb, just your example is). Berlusconi could be toppled by a very simple motion of no confidence or even more simply, it could be "toppled" by not being chosen again in the next elections. Whereas a king, AFAIK, is not automatically dethroned just because his popularity shrinks below 50%...

And the fact remains that monarchies are a non democratically elected institution.

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10669
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-07, 19:49

More like all the executive power.
Don't equivocate. You know what I mean. The president's powers are still limited (unlike say, Russia, which is a de facto monarchy).

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5631
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Saim » 2013-07-27, 1:55

IpseDixit wrote:
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:I don't see what's good about having an anachronistic, money-sucking, scandal-prone, non democratically elected institution, apart from the fact that it gives a lot of work to gossip magazines and serves as a brand for tacky mugs and plates... :roll:

No, I'd really rather have the possibility to have presidents like Berlusconi :wink:


He was democratically elected. Whether one likes it or not. This means that a conspicuous number of Italians wanted him. Can you see the difference? :wink:

Democracy is not a zero sum game. There are not just "democratic" and "dictatorial" countries, but rather a continuum from more authoritarian to more democratic. What kind of "democracy" can you have where the head of government controls most of the country's media?

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10669
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-27, 4:14

Saim wrote:Democracy is not a zero sum game. There are not just "democratic" and "dictatorial" countries, but rather a continuum from more authoritarian to more democratic. What kind of "democracy" can you have where the head of government controls most of the country's media?

modgethanc wrote:The president's powers are still limited (unlike say, Russia, which is a de facto monarchy).
That kind, I guess. But I don't think Italy is anywhere near as undemocratic as Russia is. Italy's chief problem is that it has too many parties who can't agree on anything. Russia's chief problem is that it only has one real party and nobody is able to disagree with it.

User avatar
Spaigelploatje
Posts: 930
Joined: 2009-04-12, 12:43
Gender: male
Location: Groningen
Country: NL The Netherlands (Nederland)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Spaigelploatje » 2013-07-30, 16:30

IpseDixit wrote:I don't see what's good about having an anachronistic, money-sucking, scandal-prone, non democratically elected institution, apart from the fact that it gives a lot of work to gossip magazines and serves as a brand for tacky mugs and plates... :roll:

I think a president sucks just as much money.
1. Elections every 4 years
2. Security
3. No visible stability in a country - 4 years LEFTWING- next 4 years - RIGHTWING!!! While a queen/king is always neutral and not influenced by a right or left wing image thus isn't bad for visiting any country. If our parliament becomes extremely right or left winged, it doesn't have to mean bad influence in trading with some countries as the king/queen still has a certain amount of respect and shows stability

4. Politics are fully lead by the parliament and the king/queen has no role there than to accept what the parliament says. So there are no disadvantages in politics, this in contrary to a guy like Berlusconi..

User avatar
Marah
Posts: 3015
Joined: 2011-06-03, 17:01
Real Name: Jonathan
Gender: male
Country: FR France (France)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Marah » 2013-07-30, 21:19

I think we all know that but it doesn't mean people should accept that monarchies get so much public money. Government's expenses are to some extent necessary. Can we say the same about monarchies?
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

User avatar
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk
Posts: 7005
Joined: 2005-11-30, 10:21
Gender: female
Location: Utrecht
Country: NL The Netherlands (Nederland)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-08-01, 13:12

IpseDixit wrote:
JackFrost wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:A monarchy can of course be democratically be toppled as well, by the way.

How?

For countries that have the Westminster form of government, there are provisions allowing to alter the monarch's role, so legally, they can be used to abolish the position. It's rather unusual that a monarch cannot be democratically usurped since there are only a handful of absolute monarchs left in the world. To overthrow the Saudi king, the assembly, tribes, and people would have to claim real powers over him and hope it would be enough to make him think he has no other choices. Otherwise, it could get bloody, which is rather unthinkable for Canada, Britain, the Netherlands, etc. :wink:

For example, Britain and other countries told Edward VIII to kindly take a hike. They could do that again if they ever find a reason why Charles or William cannot serve as their king since their right to throne is defined by acts of parliament.


Yeah probably I didn't express myself very well on that point. I rather meant to say that turnover is an ordinary thing in a republic, in a monarchy it is not, a person could see the same head of state for their entire lifetime.

Moreover I brought up the toppling thing because Hoog made the very dumb and wrong example of Berlusconi (please, don't get me wrong Hoog, I'm not saying you're dumb, just your example is). Berlusconi could be toppled by a very simple motion of no confidence or even more simply, it could be "toppled" by not being chosen again in the next elections. Whereas a king, AFAIK, is not automatically dethroned just because his popularity shrinks below 50%...

And the fact remains that monarchies are a non democratically elected institution.


That's okay, I should have checked before making that remark, it was dumb indeed!

You are right that a king isn't automatically dethroned but what I meant to say that it's possible. At least in the Netherlands. If we would have a petition that we would want to have our king removed and our government would make that into a law, then we wouldn't have a king anymore. It didn't happen until now, but theoretically it could and I think this possibility is already making the monarchy in the Netherlands valued more positively than you'd expect.


Lately I even watched that cam when Kate was having her baby :oops:
Native: Dutch
Learns: Latin and baby signs
Knows also (a bit): English, German, Turkish, French, Danish

Corrections appreciated.

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10669
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-08-01, 18:00

This point about stability is a red herring, I think. A constitutional monarchy offers a veneer of stability but the government still changes as often as in any other democratic country. A semi-presidential system would be just as good except the terms would be six years or something instead of for life.

Historically, absolute monarchy was highly unstable and the succession to the throne was often decided with violence. Only a "good king" could establish a monopoly on the use of force and keep his enemies from seizing power from him. With a "bad king" there was just chaos and infighting. So the only reason monarchies seem stable now is that they have no real power and the state is much more centralized and better at law enforcement than in times past.

User avatar
Lazar Taxon
Posts: 1570
Joined: 2007-10-07, 8:00
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2013-08-01, 18:17

mōdgethanc wrote:This point about stability is a red herring, I think. A constitutional monarchy offers a veneer of stability but the government still changes as often as in any other democratic country. A semi-presidential system would be just as good except the terms would be six years or something instead of for life.
As I said above, I think you're using "semi-presidential" to mean "parliamentary". France and Romania are the only semi-presidential republics in the EU; the rest are parliamentary. But in any case, yeah, it doesn't seem to me that the many ceremonial presidents of Europe have any destabilizing effect on their countries.
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag] Good: [flag=]es[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] Okay: [flag=]de[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Beginning: [flag=]it[/flag] Interested in: [flag=]he[/flag] [flag=]hi[/flag] [flag=]ru[/flag]

Today we are cats in the apocalypse!

User avatar
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk
Posts: 7005
Joined: 2005-11-30, 10:21
Gender: female
Location: Utrecht
Country: NL The Netherlands (Nederland)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-08-01, 18:25

I think therefore monarchy isn't about political stability, it's more about a national feeling, something that binds a lot of people in the country. The Netherlands would lose a symbol without a royal family, it would be like the UsA without their flag or something like that. Of course all possible, but not preferable for a lot of people.

But Marah's point still stands and there's a lot to do now about how the royal family of Belgium is trying to keep their money safe...
Native: Dutch
Learns: Latin and baby signs
Knows also (a bit): English, German, Turkish, French, Danish

Corrections appreciated.

IpseDixit

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-09-05, 23:14

I think a president sucks just as much money.
1. Elections every 4 years

Here it's every 7 years actually. And there are no elections, the Parliament elects the President of the Republic.

2. Security

Yeah, but at least we don't have royal taxes.

3. No visible stability in a country - 4 years LEFTWING- next 4 years - RIGHTWING!!! While a queen/king is always neutral and not influenced by a right or left wing image thus isn't bad for visiting any country. If our parliament becomes extremely right or left winged, it doesn't have to mean bad influence in trading with some countries as the king/queen still has a certain amount of respect and shows stability

In a Parliamentary Republic, Presidents are super partes, some of the Italian Presidents weren't even from the political world. Maybe you're actually talking about prime ministers... well in that case it's called democracy, and your comment is just an insult to all those people who lost their life fighting for democracy.

4. Politics are fully lead by the parliament and the king/queen has no role there than to accept what the parliament says. So there are no disadvantages in politics, this in contrary to a guy like Berlusconi..

See above what I said about Berlusconi.

User avatar
md0
Posts: 7754
Joined: 2010-08-08, 19:56
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby md0 » 2013-09-06, 8:53

While me living in a Presidential Republic I find all those arguments against having a president absurd because hey, we only have a president, not a president and a prime-minister (constitutionally we are supposed to have a vice-president but stuff happened in 1963).

To commit a logical fallacy here: Greece is a parliamentary republic and it's neither proportionally representative (first party by 1 single vote? Have 50 extra seats), nor stable (premature elections every year), nor able to veto the government (because the government likes to use executive orders, orders that are supposed to be only used during a war or a country-wide disaster). So, yeah. Doesn't look very good.
"If you like your clause structure, you can keep your clause structure"
Stable: Cypriot Greek (el-cy)Standard Modern Greek (el)English (en) Current: Standard German (de)
Legacy: France French (fr)Japanese (ja)Standard Turkish (tr)Elementary Finnish (fi)Netherlands Dutch (nl)

User avatar
dkatbena
Posts: 685
Joined: 2012-06-02, 17:29
Real Name: Diwani Kamatoden
Gender: male
Location: Lungsod Makati
Country: PH Philippines (Pilipinas)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby dkatbena » 2013-09-23, 2:39

Monarchy in Russia was deceived by the ideas of Stalin? So in the case of Romania, there must be revisions in Monarchial system to avoid repitition of past errors. Viva la Romania that has Monarchial system but with background from Democratic Regulations.
Kapionan ey mangyedi de inoman a manoloson de benal a Makyedyepat! eye a Makyedyepat.

User avatar
Multiturquoise
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 4032
Joined: 2011-10-10, 17:12
Gender: male
Location: İstanbul
Country: TR Turkey (Türkiye)

Re: Is it good to have a monarchy?

Postby Multiturquoise » 2014-02-27, 17:20

I think that being governed by a president is better than being governed by a sultan/ruler. I'm not hating on anything, but you have many rights in a real republic (but constitutional monarchies are almost like republics). Some countries, whose full names contain the word "republic", are not completely republics (like Iran). But I want Turkey to stay as a republic.


Return to “Politics and Religion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Osias, TheStrayCat and 1 guest