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Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-03, 17:24
by linguoboy
vijayjohn wrote:
Yasna wrote:
linguoboy wrote:Let's just take a pause to remember that the primary biological purpose of mammaries is to nourish offspring. The fact that men in certain cultures have eroticised them to the point that they are considered too obscene to be displayed in public is...kind of gross when you think about it.

This could only be thought by someone not sexually attracted to breasts. :lol:

Wrong. I think boobs are hot but not obscene to be displayed in public.

I actually find breasts sexually attractive, whoever's wearing them. This makes the notion that it's okay when some people bare them and obscene when others do even more bizarre to me.

ETA: Today Tumblr surprised many by announcing that it will ban all "adult" content and the company's explanation of what this consists of give you an idea just how ridiculously arbitrary these distinctions are:
Banned content includes photos, videos, and GIFs of human genitalia, female-presenting nipples, and any media involving sex acts, including illustrations. The exceptions include nude classical statues and political protests that feature nudity. The new guidelines exclude text, so erotica remains permitted. Illustrations and art that feature nudity are still okay — so long as sex acts aren’t depicted — and so are breast-feeding and after birth photos.

Got that? No "female-presenting nipples" can be shown--unless there's an infant attached. "Non-female-presenting nipples" are fine--unless there's an adult attached, in which case it's now a "sex act" and banned.

As a friend posted today, why is Tumblr trying to police nipples like this? Because their default gaze is that of a straight male and (as Yasna has made abundantly clear) that gaze sexualises nipples--but only if they are attached to "female-presenting persons".

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-04, 1:53
by mōdgethanc
The thing I never got about arguments over topfreedom is that everyone benefits from it. All you have to do is not stare or be creepy. Nobody is hurt by it.

I have been in situations where there were topless women in public. Nobody was harassed and nobody of any orientation made a big deal about it. We need to stop thinking of men as disgusting animals who will assault any woman at the slightest provocation and start having higher expectations of them.
Today Tumblr surprised many by announcing that it will ban all "adult" content
Truly a dark day. Tumblr was a vast repository of high-quality amateur porn that's way better than the ethically dubious and gross content that most other sites have.

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-04, 7:21
by md0
mōdgethanc wrote:We need to stop thinking of men as disgusting animals who will assault any woman at the slightest provocation and start having higher expectations of them.

And that's where MRAs really can't make up their mind. Men are simultaneously biologically pre-destined for greatness and slaves to their biological urges. (Also somehow Islam's treatment of women is barbarous and the only genuine target for feminism according to them, but women in the West should better dress up and stop asking their own rapes).

For what is worth, I am recommending Pinker, Steven (2002) The Blank Slate. The Modern Denial of Human Nature. London: Penguin Books. pp. 159-169 to Yasna. Maybe he will react better to nuance if it comes from someone on his own side of the culture wars :roll:

* * *
Truly a dark day. Tumblr was a vast repository of high-quality amateur porn that's way better than the ethically dubious and gross content that most other sites have.

I dunno, I've been always skeptical of the ethics of amateur porn online ever since I found out about revenge porn and that thing where they scam nudes out of people (is that 'catfishing'? Not sure). At least with studio-produced porn there's at least some assurance the material was made to be publicly released.
If Tumblr realised they cannot effectively moderate it (and they can't), considering the damage it can do, shutting it down is a valid option.
Of course, the double standards are blatant and sexist.

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-04, 16:14
by linguoboy
md0 wrote:I dunno, I've been always skeptical of the ethics of amateur porn online ever since I found out about revenge porn and that thing where they scam nudes out of people (is that 'catfishing'? Not sure).

Catfishing can be used to scam nudes, but people have all sorts of reasons for creating fake profiles and using them to deceive others.

md0 wrote: If Tumblr realised they cannot effectively moderate it (and they can't), considering the damage it can do, shutting it down is a valid option.

It's "valid", but it's also shitty. Tumblr users have been trying for a decade to get the site to effectively police content (like child pornography, which is the cause of them getting delisted from the Apple Store and, thus, the justification for the draconian new standards) and been basically ignored by the administrators. If they wanted to get serious about policing harmful content, they would have an army of volunteers. Instead they've decided it's easier just to throw under the bus all those folk--many of them queer and marginalised, btw--who have been effectively curating their NSFW blogs than to seek some less drastic solution that would do more to safeguard the vulnerable. The profit motive just ruins everything.

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-04, 16:38
by md0
Instead they've decided it's easier just to throw under the bus all those folk--many of them queer and marginalised, btw--who have been effectively curating their NSFW blogs than to seek some less drastic solution that would do more to safeguard the vulnerable. The profit motive just ruins everything.

Fair enough point, but that's exactly the problem with centralisation of Internet services, and it simply cannot be fixed if we insist in centralised platforms such as Tumblr, Facebook, Medium.com and so on. If you store your files on someone else's server, regardless of that platform's perceived social contract, in the end of the day it's your files on someone else's server, and you have no power to control the direction of the platform.

Decentralised and server-less solutions have come a long way since the idea was first conceived, and afaik, sex workers were one of the first marginalised groups to jump on the Mastodon federation, to become independent from the whims of centralised blog providers.

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-04, 16:48
by linguoboy
md0 wrote:Decentralised and server-less solutions have come a long way since the idea was first conceived, and afaik, sex workers were one of the first marginalised groups to jump on the Mastodon federation, to become independent from the whims of centralised blog providers.

I agree that this is the way forward and I'm hoping that the silver lining to the demise of Tumblr is that it will give groups like this a big boost.

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-04, 19:28
by Luís
Wait, so people actually use Tumblr for stuff other than adult content? :shock:

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-04, 21:32
by linguoboy
Luís wrote:Wait, so people actually use Tumblr for stuff other than adult content? :shock:

I mean, yes, but the point is also that Tumblr's definition of "adult content" is very problematic. Frank discussions of sexual practices, such as we have here, are "adult content" but they shouldn't be lumped in with revenge porn and child exploitation, which is exactly what Tumblr is doing.

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-05, 1:05
by vijayjohn
Did they really manage to kill off all Tumblr porn or whatever anyway? I'm not sure that's even possible.

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-05, 11:38
by Osias
It will be December 17th

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-06, 16:49
by Yasna
md0 wrote:For what is worth, I am recommending Pinker, Steven (2002) The Blank Slate. The Modern Denial of Human Nature. London: Penguin Books. pp. 159-169 to Yasna. Maybe he will react better to nuance if it comes from someone on his own side of the culture wars :roll:

And what side might that be? I am largely pro-choice, pro gay marriage, atheist, support breastfeeding in public, and America's obsession with guns disgusts me.

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-06, 19:27
by md0
Well, you offered a definition by exclusion there. To directly quote you, there's the matter of "the females", and of "successful races".

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-06, 22:37
by Yasna
md0 wrote:Well, you offered a definition by exclusion there. To directly quote you, there's the matter of "the females", and of "successful races".

I don't know what you're trying to say.

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-07, 0:12
by mōdgethanc
Everyone knows there are only two political positions in current year, based on which YouTube channels you watch:

left: SJW third-wave feminist BLM Antifa tankie larpers who hate free speech and want to kill all white male cishet scum

right: rational skeptic atheist "classical liberals" who are crypto-fascist misogynist racist scum and want an alt-right ethnostate that oppresses minorities

Note that all centrists are right-wingers in denial.

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-07, 3:01
by vijayjohn
All left-wingers are also socialist regressive unemployed deadbeat unpatriotic disrespectful lying biased frigid faggot cucks who read FAKE NEWS, mooch off our welfare, want dem MEHxikins coming in caravans to take over and rape everyone, and just don't know what men and women are anymore, and all right-wingers are also hateful gun-toting incel homophobic frat boys with mental disorders who are still living with their parents spending their lives on Facebook and Twitter and desperate for a lay and make you want to move to Canada.

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-07, 7:24
by mōdgethanc
The incels are already in Canada. When are we going to elect a strong leader who will secure the border OR come to an understanding of the systemic problems caused by toxic masculinity and patriarchy? (Select your opinion based on your pre-existing political affiliations.)

Re: Feminism

Posted: 2018-12-07, 7:57
by md0
Yasna wrote:
md0 wrote:Well, you offered a definition by exclusion there. To directly quote you, there's the matter of "the females", and of "successful races".

I don't know what you're trying to say.

I am not trying to say much anyway.
P1) Just that you adopt the position that present-day western women's rights and anti-racist concerns are unnecessary, misguided and/or dangerous (and you openly expressed those positions on UL many times).
P2) Steven Pinker also supports these positions, but he can be nuanced (or at least he could when we wrote that book),
Q) so I assume that regarding the topic at hand (the whole "let's not pretend that the exposed females bear zero responsibility for the extra attention") reading something from Pinker might get to your easier than reading something from a feminist who makes an entirely different set of assumptions 5 levels before that.