Feminism

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Garethw87
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Re: Feminism

Postby Garethw87 » 2013-06-07, 3:45

linguoboy wrote:
Garethw87 wrote:My opinion on this feminism topic is that its played up and overused.

I think you've thoroughly demonstrated here exactly what that opinion of yours is worth. For a follow up, why not wander into the discussion of war of Syria and school us all in the best to deal with Islamicist terrorism?


Now Syrian war is more my topic, can't believe I've missed that one!
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Re: Feminism

Postby JackFrost » 2013-06-07, 3:53

I am not aggressive in any way.

Well, I'm not a participant of this topic and I take offence at the term "you colonials", not "aggressive".

However, that is of course a whole different debate regarding the English's treatment of the indigenous people of the island. Perhaps you haven't still realized that you might the one who is actually wrong (it happens to all of us). You know, you haven't really backed up your claim a page back. And a new article very often doesn't go far, especially considering it's a BBC one, which is notoriously famous for summarizing everything to fit on a one-page paper. I cannot blame modge, linguo, and Set wanting to see some hard numbers and facts not simply to see if you're wrong, but also to see if they're wrong.

I have the right to my view if somebody starts a discussion topic surely?

We know that. No need to invoke that right.

But its just a forum, so why get so bothered about it?

A political forum to be more precise. And this is a topic where some people are going to get touchy.
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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2013-06-07, 3:54

Garethw87 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Garethw87 wrote:My opinion on this feminism topic is that its played up and overused.

I think you've thoroughly demonstrated here exactly what that opinion of yours is worth. For a follow up, why not wander into the discussion of war of Syria and school us all in the best to deal with Islamicist terrorism?

Now Syrian war is more my topic, can't believe I've missed that one!

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Re: Feminism

Postby Garethw87 » 2013-06-07, 3:56

JackFrost wrote:
I am not aggressive in any way.

Well, I'm not a participant of this topic and I take offence at the term "you colonials", not "aggressive".

However, that is of course a whole different debate regarding the English's treatment of the indigenous people of the island. Perhaps you haven't still realized that you might the one who is actually wrong (it happens to all of us). You know, you haven't really backed up your claim a page back. And a new article very often doesn't go far, especially considering it's a BBC one, which is notoriously famous for summarizing everything to fit on a one-page paper. I cannot blame modge, linguo, and Set wanting to see some hard numbers and facts not simply to see if you're wrong, but also to see if they're the ones who are wrong.

I have the right to my view if somebody starts a discussion topic surely?

We know that. No need to invoke that right.

But its just a forum, so why get so bothered about it?

A political forum to be more precise. And this is a topic where some people are going to get touchy.


Colonials was my bad. We're all cousins at the end of the day!

Yeah its a political forum, I'm more then happy with that and people getting touchy/angry but no room for insulting and such! Anyway.

I understand your gripe with the BBC that was just the first one that came up! I'm down with facts and numbers but where are they from these feminism groups? I'd be more then happy to review them
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Re: Feminism

Postby johnklepac » 2013-06-07, 4:08

Garethw87 wrote:I am not aggressive in any way. I have the right to my view if somebody starts a discussion topic surely? Where's the fun if we all agree?

Go ahead, but unless you specify otherwise we're going to pick at it as we please, and if you do specify otherwise we won't treat it as a legitimate challenge of other ideas. In other words, if you think it's just your opinion, so will we.

Garethw87 wrote:A problem I have is that the tone of replies by...

Linguoboy, Modgethanc and Set

Not only is this General Topics; it's a thread about equality - a fucking war zone from its inception. You're bound to run into this on any such thread regardless of who's posting.

Garethw87 wrote:Especially when they are ever proved wrong or if somebody doesn't agree with them on a topic is disgusting!

The fact is, there's no graceful way to lose an argument; if you realize your points are ass, you may as well keep going. If they keep getting stricken down, you won't be any worse off, and maybe your opponent will just leave or something. Actual acceptance that one is simply "wrong" is pretty rare. I try to focus more on whose points make more sense than on who's putting on a better show, though a skilled debater makes it difficult to differentiate the two. I consider debates to just be an organized setting for putting points out there.

Garethw87 wrote:But its just a forum, so why get so bothered about it?

I dunno; I get as bothered by the drama here as in real life.

Garethw87 wrote:Anyway.

Anyway, indeed. What do you think is the best way to get a real gender-neutral singular pronoun widely used in English? I'm fine with xe or whatever; I just want the Anglophone world to goddamn pick one already.

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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2013-06-07, 4:12

johnklepac wrote:Anyway, indeed. What do you think is the best way to get a real gender-neutral singular pronoun widely used in English? I'm fine with xe or whatever; I just want the Anglophone world to goddamn pick one already.

We already have one and it is "they".
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Re: Feminism

Postby Johanna » 2013-06-07, 4:17

Gareth, how do you explain the fact that in Sweden there are more women than men graduating from university, and more women than men getting high marks at that, but women still get lower salaries, and there are still less women in leadership positions?

And Sweden usually gets higher marks for equality than the UK.


No attack in any way, just a simple question.
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Re: Feminism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-06-07, 4:57

Garethw87 wrote:I am not aggressive in any way. I have the right to my view if somebody starts a discussion topic surely? Where's the fun if we all agree?

A problem I have is that the tone of replies by...

Linguoboy, Modgethanc and Set
You appear to have made a classic rookie mistake: Just because you have the right to air your opinion does not mean others have the obligation to respect it.
Especially when they are ever proved wrong
Well, I don't recall that ever happening.
or if somebody doesn't agree with them on a topic is disgusting!
It's not that you don't agree with me, Gareth. I often disagree with what linguoboy and other users say here, yet I respect their opinions because they're usually well-thought out and informed. Yours, however, are neither, so I don't feel the need to take them too seriously.
But its just a forum, so why get so bothered about it?
You tell me - you're the one who got his panties so in a twist you had to make a post about how mean we are to you.

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Re: Feminism

Postby JackFrost » 2013-06-07, 5:06

Garethw87 wrote:Colonials was my bad. We're all cousins at the end of the day!

It's fine. I can move on quickly.

I understand your gripe with the BBC that was just the first one that came up! I'm down with facts and numbers but where are they from these feminism groups? I'd be more then happy to review them

Let's put it in another way. You seem to believe that employers are law-biding people with good morals (including believing in full equality) and I am not saying all of them aren't since there are always some bad apples here and there (example: Walmart). That's my impression and you know you're free to clarify yourself without having to be overly defensive that quickly. It's been an issue that's been seen as problematic for a ridiculously long time, especially concerning equal pay. So, please understand why modge, linguo, Set, and now me aren't really convinced of your simplistic claim a page back. You had to be challenged, like any participant of a debate should be prepared for, and it is not to put you in a very negative light on the whim and at every chance.

Consider Johanna's comment. Sweden, which could be somewhat compared to the UK and is supposedly one of the best models of social and economical equality that the world should follow. See why we have doubts that it cannot be that rosy and the issue is now in the past. That's why you were asked to provide some sources.

Johanna wrote:No attack in any way

Note that it's not my intention either, Garethw87. No hard feeling from me!
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Re: Feminism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-06-07, 6:40

The problem is that saying "well, I assume employers would pick whoever is best for the job" is just that - an assumption with nothing backing it up. It's wishful thinking at best, since there have been studies done showing that this is untrue. One study I will try to track down for you was about graduate degrees in the sciences, where it was shown that fictional resumes with the exact same qualifications on them were more likely to be selected if the candidates had male names. That's right - in a case where gender shouldn't have mattered, it did. The world is not free of sexism and that's why the feminist groups you deride will keep existing and annoying you for some time, I'm afraid.

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Re: Feminism

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-06-07, 9:39

Johanna wrote:Gareth, how do you explain the fact that in Sweden there are more women than men graduating from university, and more women than men getting high marks at that, but women still get lower salaries, and there are still less women in leadership positions?

And Sweden usually gets higher marks for equality than the UK.


No attack in any way, just a simple question.


I know I'm not Gareth, but I'd still like to answer this question, because everytime it is asked people seem to assume that all women would really like to be in leadership positions, but maybe a part of the answer is that generally less women (compared to men) would like such a position? Because they value other aspects of life as more important, and because they feel less pressure by society to get such a high job? (And the other part is of course what is already discussed and for example explained by mōdgethanc in the post above mine, I wouldn't deny that, and it's a huge problem for those women who would like to get a leadership position. And obviously it's unfair that women earn less money than men on avarage, which has been shown by many statistics in the Netherlands too.)

But I've also read a very interesting article about this once, I'll see if I can find it but I'm afraid it's not on the Internet. It said that women were doing better in university because there it is clear what is expected from them: people are telling them: 'read this book, write this essay' and they read that book, write that essay, while men tend to think: 'ah, this book isn't that useful, I'll read this other book'. Generalisations all over the place, but okay. Then after university men would according to this article have a much clearer vision of what to do now: get a good job and go for it, while women would go like: 'What's expected now from me, real life is happening and it's scary, I don't know if I can do this.' Men would have more confidence then women on avarage, so that would be why women wouldn't find a job as easily. Personally I thought this was all very recognisable :)

[edit] Ah, I found it! http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/3184/opi ... -weg.dhtml
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Re: Feminism

Postby Set » 2013-06-07, 9:52

I don't think not knowing what to do after uni is a gender issue. Based on every single person that I know, I could not believe that.

There is also the problem of socialised gender roles. So part of why women might not want to be leaders as much as men could be because this isn't what is generally asked for from women, but totally is from men (which is why sexism is bad for all genders).

Personally I think that part of feminism is about women becoming more like men in the traditional sense such as becoming arsehole CEOs and being ruthless dicks. I don't like that, but would never try to stop a woman doing that if that's what she wanted. But I think the problem is more fundamental and making the typical male role the aim for women is just saying that the typical male role is best and will probably end up undermining any advancements. I think the real issue is gender roles entirely and the idea that anyone can have a pre-fabricated identity (which goes way beyond gender issues).

But back to the point above. Women still aren't expected to do that well in business or academics or any big field (with varying degrees of course) and this doesn't just come from above, but from women themselves who internalise these ideas. Eg. look at the female police in Iran who go around enforcing ridiculously oppressive and misogynistic laws.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2013-06-07, 9:57

Set wrote:
But back to the point above. Women still aren't expected to do that well in business or academics or any big field (with varying degrees of course) and this doesn't just come from above, but from women themselves who internalise these ideas. Eg. look at the female police in Iran who go around enforcing ridiculously oppressive and misogynistic laws.

Eeeh yes, that's what the article said indeed, you're absolutely right :)
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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2013-06-07, 13:01

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:But I've also read a very interesting article about this once, I'll see if I can find it but I'm afraid it's not on the Internet. It said that women were doing better in university because there it is clear what is expected from them: people are telling them: 'read this book, write this essay' and they read that book, write that essay, while men tend to think: 'ah, this book isn't that useful, I'll read this other book'. Generalisations all over the place, but okay. Then after university men would according to this article have a much clearer vision of what to do now: get a good job and go for it, while women would go like: 'What's expected now from me, real life is happening and it's scary, I don't know if I can do this.' Men would have more confidence then women on avarage, so that would be why women wouldn't find a job as easily. Personally I thought this was all very recognisable :)

I haven't had a chance to read the article yet, but the way you've summarised this, this sounds like a contrast between internally-motivated and externally-motivated personalities (to use the terminology I'm most comfortable with). I myself am very externally motivated and floundered a bit after university because job-hunting didn't work at all they way college classes did. My boyfriend is the opposite; when he suddenly lost his money while studying comp lit in grad school, he quickly pivoted and within a matter of weeks had switched to library school and found part-time work in the field.

Now, there could well be some kind of correlation between these broad categories of behaviour and gender expression. (I'd be rather surprised if there weren't, actually, given how much societal expectations of men and women differ in general.) But, if so, it's another example of people internalising the preconceptions of the societies they live in.
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Re: Feminism

Postby johnklepac » 2013-06-07, 13:49

linguoboy wrote:We already have one and it is "they".

*twitches*

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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2013-06-07, 14:29

johnklepac wrote:
linguoboy wrote:We already have one and it is "they".

*twitches*

You might want to see someone about that, because singular they ain't goin' away.

[Follow-ups to...somewhere else.]
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Re: Feminism

Postby JackFrost » 2013-06-07, 17:00

johnklepac wrote:
linguoboy wrote:We already have one and it is "they".

*twitches*

Do you know we've using it like that since the Middle English period (14th century)? The prohibition of such usage was cooked up in the 18th century by Ann Fischer -- a lady! -- who apparently couldn't accept it, despite being so common at that time, and prescribed us to use "he" whenever the gender is uncertain.
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Re: Feminism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-06-07, 17:30

I know I'm not Gareth, but I'd still like to answer this question, because everytime it is asked people seem to assume that all women would really like to be in leadership positions, but maybe a part of the answer is that generally less women (compared to men) would like such a position? Because they value other aspects of life as more important, and because they feel less pressure by society to get such a high job? (And the other part is of course what is already discussed and for example explained by mōdgethanc in the post above mine, I wouldn't deny that, and it's a huge problem for those women who would like to get a leadership position. And obviously it's unfair that women earn less money than men on avarage, which has been shown by many statistics in the Netherlands too.)
Another possibility is that men are simply more competitive than women, at least at the top end of the earnings bracket, for a variety of reasons (this forum would, I'm guessing, subscribe to the Standard Social Science Model® and rule out evolutionary psychology as a reason, so let's play it safe and say socialization is the cause).

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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2013-06-07, 18:55

mōdgethanc wrote:Another possibility is that men are simply more competitive than women

I don't think there's anything "simple" about the current situation. I particularly don't think there's any single cause which can be appealed to as the chief source of gender imbalances in the working world (unless, as you say, that source is something as general as "socialisation"--which can be appealed to explain virtually any aspect of the working world).
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Re: Feminism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-06-07, 19:53

linguoboy wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:Another possibility is that men are simply more competitive than women

I don't think there's anything "simple" about the current situation. I particularly don't think there's any single cause which can be appealed to as the chief source of gender imbalances in the working world (unless, as you say, that source is something as general as "socialisation"--which can be appealed to explain virtually any aspect of the working world).
Human behaviour is never simple. At best, that might be a partial explanation for why men are more represented at the top end of the pay scale. It doesn't explain why there is an imbalance in general.


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