Feminism

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johnklepac
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Re: Feminism

Postby johnklepac » 2013-06-06, 6:54

mōdgethanc wrote:
The vast majority of feminism is nonsense, though, because I can't remember the last feminist organization or work that mentioned in its agenda increasing rights of men, barring the right to know how privileged they are.
Why does that make it nonsense? If a human rights organization criticizes human trafficking in Thailand but not Ukraine, does that make their opinion irrelevant?

Oh, I don't think it's actually nonsense; I meant that if only the feminism that does that is nonsense, as Lur claimed, then essentially all of it is nonsense.

In fact, the quality this (poor) use of the word "nonsense" implied I dislike I actually favor, which was the point of my original post here on the subject. As difficult as this is to say, I actually like something more about second-wave feminism than third-: it keeps its scope fairly narrow. Women's rights organizations taking on men's issues just seems unclean, saps any dignity men's rights groups already have, and makes the issues seem a lot more trivial. (What would you think of Nintendo if you heard it had been absorbed by Sony?)

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Set
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Re: Feminism

Postby Set » 2013-06-06, 8:29

Garethw87 wrote:Well here in the UK we hear this kind of talk ALL the time...

No we don't.


Gareth are you trying to join the right-wing brigade here on Unilang?
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Re: Feminism

Postby Lur » 2013-06-06, 9:29

johnklepac wrote: As difficult as this is to say, I actually like something more about second-wave feminism than third-: it keeps its scope fairly narrow.

Yeah, so narrow, that transwomen aren't even in it.

Men are generic, women are special. What they did (and do) is that some actually reclaim this and build a narrative in which femaleness is an abtract thing bestowed upon them only by birth, almost as if it were magical powers, and cannot be “claimed” by those “mutilated males”.

johnklepac wrote:Women's rights organizations taking on men's issues just seems unclean,

But the whole problem intersects with men's issues. It's all related. Sure I know some "radical feminist" that doesn't even consider men can be feminist, but they can suck it.

johnklepac wrote: saps any dignity men's rights groups already have

I'm afraid most I've known of men's right groups are misgynistic reactions to non-inclusive feminism.

I think feminism will be inclusive, or it will not be. Otherwise it can "work" for a while until you crash into a ceiling created by the intersectionality you ignored.
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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2013-06-06, 13:17

Garethw87 wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Garethw87 wrote:If women have no rights how the hell is one the ruler of Germany? Isn't that the biggest and most powerful country in Europe?

Who says "women have no rights"? Serious question: find mine someone who actually claims that. Bonus points if they're someone anyone on this forum has ever heard of before.

Well here in the UK we hear this kind of talk ALL the time...

Then finding me examples (by which I mean actual citations, in case that wasn't clear) should be trivial.

Garethw87 wrote:My response to 1 is - wrong. I'm pretty certain that if a woman was the best person they get promoted.

This is based on what exactly? Your many years of experience in the working world?

Garethw87 wrote:My response to 2 is - wrong again. Nearly all jobs advertise a salary. They obviously can't just say 'oh wait but you're a woman it doesn't mean the same to you' and they wouldn't do that anyway.

Funny that someone who knows as much about how the business world works as you so obviously do doesn't realise that most positions advertise a salary range or a base salary. That means the actual salary is subject to negotiation--which women are notoriously less likely to pursue than men. And the same imbalance applies to raises, meaning that even if a woman starts out with exact same salary as a man in the same position, she may still end up unequal despite comparable or superior performance.

Try again.
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Re: Feminism

Postby johnklepac » 2013-06-06, 15:54

Lur wrote:
johnklepac wrote: As difficult as this is to say, I actually like something more about second-wave feminism than third-: it keeps its scope fairly narrow.

Yeah, so narrow, that transwomen aren't even in it.

Well, no, that's one part I don't like about it, and part of why my acceptance of Camille Paglia isn't unwavering. To be fair, though, trans women arguably occupy a different social position from cis women.

Men are generic, women are special. What they did (and do) is that some actually reclaim this and build a narrative in which femaleness is an abtract thing bestowed upon them only by birth, almost as if it were magical powers, and cannot be “claimed” by those “mutilated males”.

I agree.

johnklepac wrote:Women's rights organizations taking on men's issues just seems unclean,

But the whole problem intersects with men's issues. It's all related. Sure I know some "radical feminist" that doesn't even consider men can be feminist, but they can suck it.

Well, then, men's rights groups should just as easily be able to add women's rights, right? If your answer is no, then it's likely that either (1) you understand my chagrin for the asymmetricality of this usurping of men's issues or (2) you just don't like the idea of men's rights groups in general.

johnklepac wrote: saps any dignity men's rights groups already have

I'm afraid most I've known of men's right groups are misgynistic reactions to non-inclusive feminism.

Some bad apples are, yeah, and the same could be said of some feminist organizations. But take ManKind Initiative, for example. Their agenda does not deny women rights; it just does not explicitly advocate for them. I'm fine with these being a legitimate thing, though personally I'd prefer there just to be equal rights organizations that aren't named after one gender or the other. And if ManKind started usurping women's rights issues, I'd get less comfortable with it.

I think feminism will be inclusive, or it will not be. Otherwise it can "work" for a while until you crash into a ceiling created by the intersectionality you ignored.

Maybe it should. I'm fine with general equal-rights groups doing it, since it is very well in their scope.

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Re: Feminism

Postby Garethw87 » 2013-06-06, 18:34

linguoboy wrote:
Garethw87 wrote:
Garethw87 wrote:My response to 2 is - wrong again. Nearly all jobs advertise a salary. They obviously can't just say 'oh wait but you're a woman it doesn't mean the same to you' and they wouldn't do that anyway.

Funny that someone who knows as much about how the business world works as you so obviously do doesn't realise that most positions advertise a salary range or a base salary. That means the actual salary is subject to negotiation--which women are notoriously less likely to pursue than men. And the same imbalance applies to raises, meaning that even if a woman starts out with exact same salary as a man in the same position, she may still end up unequal despite comparable or superior performance.

Try again.


Are you not in Chicago? do you apply for many jobs in the UK?
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Re: Feminism

Postby Garethw87 » 2013-06-06, 18:36

Set wrote:
Garethw87 wrote:Well here in the UK we hear this kind of talk ALL the time...

No we don't.


Gareth are you trying to join the right-wing brigade here on Unilang?


A 2 second search finds this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22717579

Are you not in Spain/Catalunya?
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Re: Feminism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-06-06, 18:37

Why should we assume the UK is so different from any other Western country here?
Garethw87 wrote:My response to 1 is - wrong. I'm pretty certain that if a woman was the best person they get promoted.

My response to 2 is - wrong again. Nearly all jobs advertise a salary. They obviously can't just say 'oh wait but you're a woman it doesn't mean the same to you' and they wouldn't do that anyway.
How naive you are, Gareth. If major companies really are so fair and high-minded towards women, why is there still a gender pay gap? Oh, that's right - women have babies and we can't promote someone who might decide to take a year off right after being hired on the company dime. Does that sound fair and equal to you?

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Re: Feminism

Postby Set » 2013-06-06, 19:01

Garethw87 wrote:
Set wrote:
Garethw87 wrote:Well here in the UK we hear this kind of talk ALL the time...

No we don't.


Gareth are you trying to join the right-wing brigade here on Unilang?


A 2 second search finds this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22717579

Are you not in Spain/Catalunya?

That's one article, it's hardly "ALL the time". And I'm from England, I know that you're talking BS.
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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2013-06-06, 20:15

Garethw87 wrote:Are you not in Chicago? do you apply for many jobs in the UK?

I have applied for jobs in the UK, Gareth. And in Germany. You? Please, feel free to share details of your extensive experience in the European jobs market.

In the meantime, why don't you peruse some of the job ads in this fine publication. (I do believe it originates in the UK, although I'm sure you'll know better than I.) Tell me if you notice anything noteworthy about the salary information in them.
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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2013-06-06, 20:18

Set wrote:Gareth are you trying to join the right-wing brigade here on Unilang?

I think he saw the risk of some partially informed discourse breaking out on Unilang for a change and decided it fell to him to save us all from ourselves. A noble sacrifice, brave young man!
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Re: Feminism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-06-06, 20:35

What is this mythical brigade of right-wingers on Unilang? Who is it? I've been accused of being a member of it more times than I can recall, yet I don't think this sounds like something a conservative would say:
mōdgethanc wrote:How naive you are, Gareth. If major companies really are so fair and high-minded towards women, why is there still a gender pay gap? Oh, that's right - women have babies and we can't promote someone who might decide to take a year off right after being hired on the company dime. Does that sound fair and equal to you?
Or maybe on Unilang, "not part of the radical left" = "part of the radical right". Does that seem right to you?

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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2013-06-06, 20:36

mōdgethanc wrote:What is this mythical brigade of right-wingers on Unilang? Who is it? I've been accused of being a member of it more times than I can recall, yet I don't think this sounds like something a conservative would say:

Surprise! It's not always about you.
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Re: Feminism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-06-06, 20:38

linguoboy wrote:Surprise! It's not always about you.
Then who is it?

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Re: Feminism

Postby Set » 2013-06-07, 0:03

He's trying to have a conversation with me, but he blocked me....so he's basically talking to a brick wall :para:
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Re: Feminism

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-06-07, 2:30

I'll save him the work: "Salary not specified".
Garethw87 wrote:Are you not in Spain/Catalunya?
Catalonia*

Unless you're in Angleterre. Are you?

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Re: Feminism

Postby Garethw87 » 2013-06-07, 3:16

mōdgethanc wrote:I'll save him the work: "Salary not specified".
Garethw87 wrote:Are you not in Spain/Catalunya?
Catalonia*

Unless you're in Angleterre. Are you?


I don't get why you colonials get so aggressive all the time? Anyway, there is no need to accuse me of being 'right wing' when you don't have a clue what my views are.

My opinion on this feminism topic is that its played up and overused.
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Re: Feminism

Postby JackFrost » 2013-06-07, 3:20

Garethw87 wrote:I don't get why you colonials get so aggressive all the time?

As if you aren't yourself.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Garethw87 » 2013-06-07, 3:24

I am not aggressive in any way. I have the right to my view if somebody starts a discussion topic surely? Where's the fun if we all agree?

A problem I have is that the tone of replies by...

Linguoboy, Modgethanc and Set

Especially when they are ever proved wrong or if somebody doesn't agree with them on a topic is disgusting!

But its just a forum, so why get so bothered about it?

Anyway.
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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2013-06-07, 3:42

Garethw87 wrote:My opinion on this feminism topic is that its played up and overused.

I think you've thoroughly demonstrated here exactly what that opinion of yours is worth. For a follow up, why not wander into the discussion of war of Syria and school us all in the best to deal with Islamicist terrorism?
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