Feminism

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Saim
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Re: Feminism

Postby Saim » 2016-04-22, 10:15

Massimiliano B wrote:I just do what I want: I look (if I want) at them. This is not forbidden.


Do you seriously not appreciate the difference between look and stare?

Besides, in what world is wearing a tight dress equivalent to being half-naked? More importantly: even if it was, why does that mean it's OK for you to potentially make them uncomfortable? If they're not dressed in a way that you personally would consider "half-naked" do you behave differently?

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Re: Feminism

Postby IpseDixit » 2016-04-22, 10:23

Saim wrote:Also in what world is wearing a tight dress equivalent to being half-naked?


Yeah exactly. I too wanted to point that out.

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Re: Feminism

Postby Massimiliano B » 2016-04-22, 11:08

Saim wrote:
Massimiliano B wrote:I just do what I want: I look (if I want) at them. This is not forbidden.


Do you seriously not appreciate the difference between look and stare?

Besides, in what world is wearing a tight dress equivalent to being half-naked? More importantly: even if it was, why does that mean it's OK for you to potentially make them uncomfortable? If they're not dressed in a way that you personally would consider "half-naked" do you behave differently?


I can stare at a woman if she is very beautiful, in the same way women stare at beautiful men. It's normal. Obviously, it depends on the time and the distance. If I am in front of one girl it's impolite to do that. If I am at an adequate distance (5 metres or more) there is nothing wrong. If I stare at a girl for one hour with open mouth and I am two metres from her, that's disturbing. This is my opinion.

If a woman is dressed in a way that does not attract my attention, I can behave differently.

We are speaking about a disco and about some girls with tight dresses. Usually, but not always, they like to attract attention.

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Re: Feminism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-04-22, 14:21

Massimiliano B wrote:We are speaking about a disco and about some girls with tight dresses. Usually, but not always, they like to attract attention.

What is your evidence for this?

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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-04-22, 19:51

Massimiliano B wrote:I can stare at a woman if she is very beautiful, in the same way women stare at beautiful men. It's normal.

Hello false equivalence!

When a nontrivial number of women regularly go from staring at beautiful men to sexually assaulting them, then we can talk about what's "normal". But as long as that huge disparity in behaviour exists, different standards will apply.

Massimiliano B wrote:Obviously, it depends on the time and the distance. If I am in front of one girl it's impolite to do that. If I am at an adequate distance (5 metres or more) there is nothing wrong. If I stare at a girl for one hour with open mouth and I am two metres from her, that's disturbing. This is my opinion.

Reasonable people may differ on what is the appropriate distance, length of time, manner, etc. for gazing upon a stranger's body in public. But because this difference of opinion exists, the responsible thing to do is err on the side of caution, i.e. stare less than you personally might think is appropriate.

Massimiliano B wrote:If a woman is dressed in a way that does not attract my attention, I can behave differently.

Does this mean you are somehow physically or mentally unable to restrain yourself from staring at women who attract your attention? Because if that's the case, you might need professional help.

I've spent a considerable amount of time trying to teach my older brother socially acceptable techniques for looking at women in public. He's been arrested before for making women uncomfortable with their states. He's also being clinically treated for mental issues.

Massimiliano B wrote:We are speaking about a disco and about some girls with tight dresses. Usually, but not always, they like to attract attention.

But not necessarily your attention. Egotistic much?
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Re: Feminism

Postby uzferry » 2016-04-22, 20:56

But I mean, when choosing what to wear, it's also worth to consider that there are people who just can't refrain from staring no matter what they do, because of some kind of psychological problem. Maybe they don't want to stare, but they cannot fight the urge, thus it's not a pleasant feeling for either side.

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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-04-22, 21:10

uzferry wrote:But I mean, when choosing what to wear, it's also worth to consider that there are people who just can't refrain from staring no matter what they do, because of some kind of psychological problem. Maybe they don't want to stare, but they cannot fight the urge, thus it's not a pleasant feeling for either side.

I doubt most of the people I've seen leering at women on a dance floor had "psychological problems" of the type that would feature in DSM-5. I think they just felt entitled to gaze at women's bodies without giving a fuck about those women's feelings with regard to being stared at. (Admittedly, I haven't taken a survey. I could start asking.)

Every time there's some sort of sexual harassment incident in the news, someone brings out the "what about autistic people?" argument. And this always annoys me because (a) it further stigmatises mental illness in general and autism in particular and (b) it willfully ignores how many people with autism and other disorders manage not to creep other people the fuck out because they work really really hard at it.

As mentioned above, my older brother is mentally ill. He sometimes interacts inappropriately with women. But he realises this, he takes responsibility for it, and he's genuinely trying to do better. (He was honestly shocked to hear that women could find him--a six-foot tall man--"threatening" because he's so used to being ignored or picked on.) Yeah, there are plenty of other people out there who aren't as high-functioning as him. But, as I said, I'm sceptical that they make up a sizable percentage of the clubbing population.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Antea » 2016-04-22, 21:30

It's a complicated matter all this. If you had a daughter and you raised her telling her that she's a free person and that she has the same rights as men, how would you explain all this? Ok girl, you're free to dress the way you want, as men do, and just as them, you're free to go dancing, etc...but be careful, because if you act in a "too much free" way, men could think that you don't deserve respect... :hmm: So, where's the freedom in all that? :hmm:

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Re: Feminism

Postby uzferry » 2016-04-22, 22:04

linguoboy wrote:
uzferry wrote:But I mean, when choosing what to wear, it's also worth to consider that there are people who just can't refrain from staring no matter what they do, because of some kind of psychological problem. Maybe they don't want to stare, but they cannot fight the urge, thus it's not a pleasant feeling for either side.

I doubt most of the people I've seen leering at women on a dance floor had "psychological problems" of the type that would feature in DSM-5. I think they just felt entitled to gaze at women's bodies without giving a fuck about those women's feelings with regard to being stared at. (Admittedly, I haven't taken a survey. I could start asking.)

Every time there's some sort of sexual harassment incident in the news, someone brings out the "what about autistic people?" argument. And this always annoys me because (a) it further stigmatises mental illness in general and autism in particular and (b) it willfully ignores how many people with autism and other disorders manage not to creep other people the fuck out because they work really really hard at it.

As mentioned above, my older brother is mentally ill. He sometimes interacts inappropriately with women. But he realises this, he takes responsibility for it, and he's genuinely trying to do better. (He was honestly shocked to hear that women could find him--a six-foot tall man--"threatening" because he's so used to being ignored or picked on.) Yeah, there are plenty of other people out there who aren't as high-functioning as him. But, as I said, I'm sceptical that they make up a sizable percentage of the clubbing population.



Okay, then let's scratch off people with psychological problems for a moment and let's focus on the majority, which I hope I know well enough to make rough generalizations. I don't know why you brought up dance floors, but even so, I think when a woman dressed up in a way that exposes parts that are considered taboo in public dances in some intimate manner, she has to consider that she may be toying with other men's urges. The point is, I think controlling them is never easy, and she is willingly making it more difficult for men not to stare at her. That's true, some people don't care and will stare for as long as they want. But men who are making a conscious effort to fight their urges and whatnot may find the situation very uncomfortable and even to some extent agonizing. I'm speaking from my own experience and I know a few people who had this same problem. This can be avoided.

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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-04-22, 22:17

uzferry wrote:Okay, then let's scratch off people with psychological problems for a moment and let's focus on the majority, which I hope I know well enough to make rough generalizations. I don't know why you brought up dance floors

Because I was responding to a post from Johanna where she mentioned them. (Way to erase a woman from the discussion.)

uzferry wrote:I think when a woman dressed up in a way that exposes parts that are considered taboo in public dances in some intimate manner, she has to consider that she may be toying with other men's urges.

With all due respect

Image

Johanna didn't mention what she wears to a club. I didn't mention what my friends wear to a club. Massimiliano is the one who brought apparel into it and you are following his lead while making even more wild assumptions.

What "parts that are considered taboo"? Her ankles? Her earlobes? Anything not covered by a full-on Afghani burqa?

uzferry wrote:The point is, I think controlling them is never easy, and she is willingly making it more difficult for men not to stare at her.

I'm a man, remember. I know how hard it is to control my desire to stare at people--even those I find wildly attractive. (Hint: Not that hard.) Admittedly, it's a skill I've been working on since I was five years old and my parents began telling me it was HORRIBLY RUDE to stare at people in public and should work on NOT DOING IT.

But I don't want to be culturally imperialist here, so I'll ask: Are things different in the culture you were raised in?

uzferry wrote:That's true, some people don't care and will stare for as long as they want. But men who are making a conscious effort to fight their urges and whatnot may find the situation very uncomfortable and even to some extent agonizing. I'm speaking from my own experience and I know a few people who had this same problem. This can be avoided.

You're right, it can: Those men can not go to clubs where they might see women dressed in such a way as they will find it "agonizing" not to stare at them. Problem solved!
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Re: Feminism

Postby uzferry » 2016-04-22, 22:33

Well, I wasn't referring to Johanna nor your friends, as I said, I was trying to tackle the broader situation :D I'm sorry, I only paid attention to the last few posts, I didn't want to continue that particular discussion, rather to add my own two cents in regards of the whole thread, and ask something I found particularly interesting. :)

linguoboy wrote:But I don't want to be culturally imperialist here, so I'll ask: Are things different in the culture you were raised in?


No, probably not.

What "parts that are considered taboo"? Her ankles? Her earlobes? Anything not covered by a full-on Afghani burqa?


Do we really have to go through this? The ones that are usually covered in most of casual situations, the ones that proper dress code requires to cover, the ones that can have any sexual labels attached to them. Do you really don't understand what I'm implying?


You're right, it can: Those men can not go to clubs where they might see women dressed in such a way as they will find it "agonizing" not to stare at them. Problem solved!


Yeah, this is a solution, but what about the suggestive clothing in streets (leaving the dancing out, of course) ? What if there are reasons why someone would go want to club (not that I know of, but still) ? :D

But okay, I haven't considered that maybe it's just me, which is probably the case :para:
Last edited by uzferry on 2016-04-22, 22:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-04-22, 22:37

uzferry wrote:Yeah, this is a solution, but what about the suggestive clothing in streets (leaving the dancing out, of course) ? What if there are reasons why someone would go want to club (not that I know of, but still) ?

What do you do when there are other sights which are "agonizing" to see on the streets, like starving stray animals or people disfigured by war, birth defects, or disease?
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Re: Feminism

Postby uzferry » 2016-04-22, 22:47

Are you really comparing clothing that can be changed every day with disfigurement? Starving animals upset me, and anything related to starving/injured animals usually ruins my whole day, I'd prefer not to see any of them whatsoever. Disfigured/diseased/people with birth defects aren't that common where I grew up for some reason, but I understand that there is nothing I can do and if they're very unpleasant to look at I just don't look, but I wouldn't say they affect me that much, because this is a very different matter from the one we were talking about.
Last edited by uzferry on 2016-04-22, 22:58, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Feminism

Postby Massimiliano B » 2016-04-22, 22:47

vijayjohn wrote:
Massimiliano B wrote:We are speaking about a disco and about some girls with tight dresses. Usually, but not always, they like to attract attention.

What is your evidence for this?



The way women look at me whenever I stare or look at them.


linguoboy wrote:
Massimiliano B wrote:I can stare at a woman if she is very beautiful, in the same way women stare at beautiful men. It's normal.

Hello false equivalence!


When a nontrivial number of women regularly go from staring at beautiful men to sexually assaulting them, then we can talk about what's "normal". But as long as that huge disparity in behaviour exists, different standards will apply.


You can't predict which man will go from staring at beautiful women to sexually assaulting them. Saying that this passage is likely because a nontrivial number of men do that is a logical fallacy, which consists in asserting that a particular result will probably or inevitably follow from a given circumstance. You have no rational argument for the likelihood of the consequence. So, different standars cannot apply.

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Re: Feminism

Postby vijayjohn » 2016-04-23, 2:58

uzferry wrote:Are you really comparing clothing that can be changed every day with disfigurement?

But the basic point he's making is true, isn't it? If you don't feel comfortable looking at people who are dressed in a certain way, then why look at them?
Massimiliano B wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Massimiliano B wrote:We are speaking about a disco and about some girls with tight dresses. Usually, but not always, they like to attract attention.

What is your evidence for this?



The way women look at me whenever I stare or look at them.

That's it? Have you ever tried actually asking any of the women you stared at whether they were okay with you staring at them, or whether they "like to attract attention"? Have you ever read or listened to anything a woman had to say about men staring at them?
You can't predict which man will go from staring at beautiful women to sexually assaulting them.

Nor can you predict which won't.
Saying that this passage is likely because a nontrivial number of men do that is a logical fallacy, which consists in asserting that a particular result will probably or inevitably follow from a given circumstance.

And what kind of logical fallacy is this?

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Re: Feminism

Postby linguoboy » 2016-04-23, 4:50

uzferry wrote:Are you really comparing clothing that can be changed every day with disfigurement?

Is it really the clothing which "makes" you stare or is it the body beneath the clothing?

Whether the body is beautiful or hideous, the choice of whether to stare or not is ultimately yours. Not staring is a learned behaviour, and if you can learn not to stare at an amputee or a hydrocephalic child because it makes them (and the persons with them) uncomfortable, you can also learn how not to stare at a woman you consider attractive because it makes her (and the persons with her) uncomfortable.

Massimiliano B wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Massimiliano B wrote:We are speaking about a disco and about some girls with tight dresses. Usually, but not always, they like to attract attention.

What is your evidence for this?

The way women look at me whenever I stare or look at them.

And what way is that?

Do they smile? That could be a sign that they're flattered. It could also be a sign that they're not sure if you're a dangerous psycho and they don't want to risk anything (like a look of disapproval) which could possibly set you off. (You think perhaps I'm making this up? I'm not.)

Massimiliano B wrote:
linguoboy wrote:When a nontrivial number of women regularly go from staring at beautiful men to sexually assaulting them, then we can talk about what's "normal". But as long as that huge disparity in behaviour exists, different standards will apply.

You can't predict which man will go from staring at beautiful women to sexually assaulting them.

That's precisely my point.

When you stare at women, they have no way of reading your mind to discern your intentions. Are you guilty of nothing more than bad manners or are you imagining what her body would look like chopped up into 20 cm lengths in your freezer?

So if you care about women as people and not just visual objects with which to fuel your lusts, don't put them in the position of having to ask themselves that question. Is that such a hard choice to make? Are you really that deficient in human empathy?
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uzferry

Re: Feminism

Postby uzferry » 2016-04-23, 6:25

linguoboy wrote:Is it really the clothing which "makes" you stare or is it the body beneath the clothing?


I see your point. Thanks. :)

But I still wonder if it's 100% possible for everyone (or, at least, the majority) to learn this kind behaviour of completely ignoring the body and how easily it is learned. But maybe I'm being biased because of cultural differences.

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Re: Feminism

Postby Varislintu » 2016-04-23, 7:04

In a world where men are in sheer agony from seeing women's skin or shapes, how can men even stand going to the beach? To the swimming hall for exercise? To a mixed-gender gym? To a jogging track? How can male nurses, doctors and all other male health care workers keep their sanity when they may need to see "taboo" places on women on a regular basis? Can men go to concerts where there are show dancers without going nuts?

In other words, what are you talking about? There's plenty of everyday evidence that men can handle themselves just fine around female bodies, without feeling utterly agonised or entitled to some kind of rude or threatening access to their bodies. It's a matter of choice and attitude. Men who are incapable of handling themselves seem to most likely have a flaw in the choices they make or their attitudes, and should look into that.
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Re: Feminism

Postby Antea » 2016-04-23, 7:28

Well, the fact is there are rules and norms that should not be transgessed, but there are people that still do it. It's like stealing, it's forbidden, but there are people who do it. And then, It's like saying that the fault of this is from the victim because she was wearing a gold bracelet, and so she was provoking. And then concluding that people should not wear any gold jewellery....I mean....It's difficult, because we all know what's right or wrong, but even though, there are people who choose the wrong side of the behauviour or of the law :hmm: :hmm:

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Re: Feminism

Postby Massimiliano B » 2016-04-23, 14:09

@Linguoboy, it's not your point. Your point is that you have no way of reading a man's mind to discern his intentions, and that's why staring or looking at women is a bad habit. This conclusion is a logical fallacy, called the slippery slope.

A half-dressed girl dancing in a disco is also a visual object. I speak of this particular situation.

Even women rape men (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_males), so the standards have to be the same.

I wrote that usually, but not always, women like to attract attention. My evidence for this is especially the way women look or stare at me, even though I wasn't previously looking or staring at them. A lot of times it happens (and has happened) to me.

I've had also sexual harrassments from girls and women (both verbal and physical), but this is not the place to discuss it.


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