Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

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Marah
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Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby Marah » 2013-07-14, 17:46

Aren't the Palestinians descendants of the Jews that used to live there anyway?
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

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Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby Lur » 2013-07-14, 18:10

IpseDixit wrote:
Lur wrote:Your ancestors and you had some specific boring religion so certain land is for you, even though you were living somewhere else. Yeah, makes perfect sense.


Judaism is not just a religion. They consider themselves a people, just like the French, the Russians and any other people. A person is still Jewish even though he/she is 100% atheist.


But they, as a "people", they did not speak their language natively anymore, but Aramaic and later others around the world (even from other language families!), they lived in widly different places which is a problem for the "people" thing, and I may be ignorant on the matter but I think we're left with the religion thing pretty much.

And I don't like centering states around religions. Much less if it's the one that started this Levantine monotheism craze.
Last edited by Lur on 2013-07-14, 18:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-14, 18:13

Lur wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:
Lur wrote:Your ancestors and you had some specific boring religion so certain land is for you, even though you were living somewhere else. Yeah, makes perfect sense.


Judaism is not just a religion. They consider themselves a people, just like the French, the Russians and any other people. A person is still Jewish even though he/she is 100% atheist.


But they, as a "people", they did not speak their language natively anymore, but Aramaic and later others around the world (even from other language families!), they lived in widly different places which is a problem for the "people" thing, and I may be ignorant on the matter but I think we're left with the religion thing pretty much.


Yeah. That's what is called a diaspora. What has always united them is their tradition.

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Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby Lur » 2013-07-14, 18:18

Given the developments in the last century we might talk of a re-ethnogenesis but the time in between is a different thing.
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Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-14, 20:39

Marah wrote:Aren't the Palestinians descendants of the Jews that used to live there anyway?


I don't know, some say they might be the descendants of the Philistines, others say they are Arabs who invaded the land much later.

I've heard that Ben Gurion thought Palestinians had some link to the Jews of the second temple. I don't know how many Zionists shared this idea of his.

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Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-14, 21:11

JackFrost wrote:Let's not pretend the missiles aren't run and kept in check by a flawless system. So yeah, maybe it would be even better if the world don't have them at all.
It sure would. But since countries have them and aren't going to give them up, we should focus on lowering their number and ensuring strict measures against this kind of thing happening again (it was really just poor communication).
IpseDixit wrote:Ok, but then you will have to find a solution to actually end this new cold war.
Yes, you do. And that's exactly what the USA and USSR did. They got tired of living in fear and found a way to live together. And then their shitty economy collapsed but that's a different story.
Moreover, the threat of a nuclear attack shouldn't really scare Palestinians because for Israel it would be like nuking itself, furthermore some of the holiest places of Judaism are in the West Bank.
I didn't mean the Palestinians should have nuclear weapons. If Iran and other countries in the neighbourhood had them, Israel would behave itself and so would they. They might make idle threats, but they wouldn't go to war because even the Iranian clerics aren't quite that nuts.
Lur wrote:It'd be interesting if people there stopped being Jewish and Muslim and brought some common sense to the table.
Yeah okay people should give up their cherished identities because some Spaniard on the Internet said so.
But they, as a "people", they did not speak their language natively anymore, but Aramaic and later others around the world (even from other language families!), they lived in widly different places which is a problem for the "people" thing, and I may be ignorant on the matter but I think we're left with the religion thing pretty much.
You really are ignorant on the matter if you think ethnicity = language or = geography. Jews everywhere saw themselves as the same ethnic group with a shared history and culture. That's good enough for every other ethnic group, so it should be good enough for them too.
And I don't like centering states around religions. Much less if it's the one that started this Levantine monotheism craze.
Luckily for you, it's not. It's the state of the Jewish people, not the Jewish religion. (And not just Jewish people - other people are allowed to live there too.) I don't hear anyone complaining that Italy is the Italian state or Japan is the Japanese state, but Israel gets singled out because it's trendy to hate it.

IpseDixit

Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-14, 21:44

I think the threat of a nuclear attack can actually stop Iran, that's true (and anyway, if Iran really cares about Palestinians, it will never drop an atomic bomb on Israel...), but Palestine is a different issue, becuase would Israel really drop a nuclear bomb on its backyard? (where among the other things there are some of its holiest sites).

Moreover I personally don't think the occupation is a fiasco. Let's wait some more decades, just the time necessary to flood the West Bank with crazy settlers and let's see how many Palestinians will have the courage to stay there. (Please note that this isn't necessary what I think it is just and desirable).

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Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-14, 22:11

The settlers are the main reason the Palestinians in the West Bank are so angry about the occupation, or one of them. Israel should really stop encouraging them and adopt a "settle at your own risk" policy.

IpseDixit

Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-14, 22:17

mōdgethanc wrote:The settlers are the main reason the Palestinians in the West Bank are so angry about the occupation, or one of them. Israel should really stop encouraging them and adopt a "settle at your own risk" policy.


Well, Palestinians are angry but what can they do?

Terrorist attacks are becoming very difficult to carry out owing to the wall and check points. Hence why should Israel take their anger and frustration seriously?

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Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-07-14, 23:34

IpseDixit wrote:Terrorist attacks are becoming very difficult to carry out owing to the wall and check points. Hence why should Israel take their anger and frustration seriously?
Because they're human beings and they deserve better than to live in a garrison state?

IpseDixit

Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-15, 6:07

mōdgethanc wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:Terrorist attacks are becoming very difficult to carry out owing to the wall and check points. Hence why should Israel take their anger and frustration seriously?
Because they're human beings and they deserve better than to live in a garrison state?


I agree, but you cannot expect Israeli politicians to care about those petty details...for them Palestinians are just something hindering the enstablishment of a Jewish state that stretches from the Mediterranean sea to the Jordan river (well, that's at least the view of the right, and the left is weak and not supported by many).

You say that Palestinians are human and I agree of course, but I don't think some Israelis share our position to be honest. In my opinion an average Israeli thinks that whatever they do to the Palestinians, no matter how unpleasant, is necessary and legit because Palestinians are evil and willing to destroy Israel.

So that's why I'm pretty sure the "humanity argument" will fall flat on its face.

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Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby Marah » 2013-07-15, 10:48

I don't know, some say they might be the descendants of the Philistines, others say they are Arabs who invaded the land much later.

I've heard that Ben Gurion thought Palestinians had some link to the Jews of the second temple. I don't know how many Zionists shared this idea of his.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Invent ... ish_People
Have you heard of it? It's quite interesting.
Par exemple, l'enfant croit au Père Noël. L'adulte non. L'adulte ne croit pas au Père Noël. Il vote.

IpseDixit

Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-15, 12:07

Marah wrote:
I don't know, some say they might be the descendants of the Philistines, others say they are Arabs who invaded the land much later.

I've heard that Ben Gurion thought Palestinians had some link to the Jews of the second temple. I don't know how many Zionists shared this idea of his.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Invent ... ish_People
Have you heard of it? It's quite interesting.


Yeah I wanted to read it. It seems very interesting :)

But my question is: isn't any people somewhat invented?

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Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby Lur » 2013-07-15, 14:58

mōdgethanc wrote:
Lur wrote:It'd be interesting if people there stopped being Jewish and Muslim and brought some common sense to the table.
Yeah okay people should give up their cherished identities because some Spaniard on the Internet said so.

Being Muslim or Jewish is an identity?

I don't know, when your "people" are dying for no reason and people are enforcing dubious morals and indoctrinating children in the name of your "identity", your identity can go fuck itself.

But they, as a "people", they did not speak their language natively anymore, but Aramaic and later others around the world (even from other language families!), they lived in widly different places which is a problem for the "people" thing, and I may be ignorant on the matter but I think we're left with the religion thing pretty much.
You really are ignorant on the matter if you think ethnicity = language or = geography. Jews everywhere saw themselves as the same ethnic group with a shared history and culture. That's good enough for every other ethnic group, so it should be good enough for them too.

But I don't think that's good enough for every other ethnic group. I consider them ethnic groups when they have more than one thing in common, for a start, and one of the main ones is language.

And I don't like centering states around religions. Much less if it's the one that started this Levantine monotheism craze.
Luckily for you, it's not. It's the state of the Jewish people, not the Jewish religion.

Do the people in power there see it that way? What used to unite the "Jewish people", anyway?
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Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-15, 15:27

Lur wrote:Being Muslim or Jewish is an identity?


Why not? Whether one likes it or not the religion of your people is part of your identity. I'm not Catholic, but I think that Catholicism will always be somewhat part of my identity and culture, in spite of the fact that there are a few things I do not really like about that religion.

What's an identity for you?

Lur wrote:I don't know, when your "people" are dying for no reason and people are enforcing dubious morals and indoctrinating children in the name of your "identity", your identity can go fuck itself.


Well, this is barely the case of Israel. Most of the Israelis are secular. The Bible for most of them is like the book that narrates their history. Their morals is as liberal as the one of many of us westerners. Plus, you mustn't know the Jews really well if you really believe they would ever give up their tradition. They'd rather die.

Muslims, yeah, I think they are a bit more indoctrinated. But in my opinion it is not because of their religion per se (I've never read the Quran but I think it can't be worse than the Old Testament). It is just because they decided to interpret it in a fanatic way.

And moreover, when there is war and death because of who you are, you cling on to your identity even stronger.

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Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby Set » 2013-07-15, 15:38

IpseDixit wrote:Well, this is barely the case of Israel. Most of the Israelis are secular. The Bible for most of them is like the book that narrates their history. Their morals is as liberal as the one of many of us westerners. Plus, you mustn't know the Jews really well if you really believe they would ever give up their tradition. They'd rather die.

Muslims, yeah, I think they are a bit more indoctrinated. But in my opinion it is not because of their religion per se (I've never read the Quran but I think it can't be worse than the Old Testament). It is just because they decided to interpret it in a fanatic way.

Yikes.
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Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-15, 15:44

Set wrote:Yikes.


Any problems?

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Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby Set » 2013-07-15, 16:03

Apart from your extremely prejudiced generalisations of two rather large culture groups based on absolutely no facts...no.
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Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby linguoboy » 2013-07-15, 16:05

IpseDixit wrote:Why not? Whether one likes it or not the religion of your people is part of your identity. I'm not Catholic, but I think that Catholicism will always be somewhat part of my identity and culture, in spite of the fact that there are a few things I do not really like about that religion.

Catholicism is still part of my cultural identity, despite the fact that I've been an atheist for nearly 25 years. You just can't erase the effects of your formative years that easily.

Religion has always been considered an important fact in defining ethnicity. Just look at the South Slavs.
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IpseDixit

Re: Ethnocentrism in foreign news coverage

Postby IpseDixit » 2013-07-15, 16:32

Set wrote:Apart from your extremely prejudiced generalisations of two rather large culture groups based on absolutely no facts...no.


Well, the fact that most of the Israelis are not particularly religious is a fact that you can verify quite easily in the net. Maybe I shouldn't have said secular because many have their own theistic views, but the proportion of the population which is strictly observant is definitely a minority.

As for Muslims. It's logical that I do not believe all Muslims are the same, my god... but I actually believe many Muslims are indoctrinated. I talked with Arabs living in the Arab world, mainly Palestinians and Lebanese and well, some of them complained about the "excess of zeal" of many people there; but yeah I know you will not count that as a fact and you will keep seeing me as an evil bigoted person. :roll:


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