"West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

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Halfdan
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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Halfdan » 2013-03-26, 12:35

Chile actually has a relatively large population of ethnic Croats (estimated between 2 and 5% being of Croatian descent). As for the reasons for their migration to Chile, I can't help. :wink:

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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Lietmotiv » 2013-03-26, 13:19

Wikipedia
"The Information and Security Service of the Republic of Moldova has estimated that 600,000 to one million Moldovan citizens (almost 25% of a population of some 4.4 million) are working abroad, most illegally. Only around 80,000 are estimated to be in their destination country legally. Russia (especially Moscow region), Italy, Ukraine, Romania, Portugal, Spain, Greece, Turkey, and Israel are the main destinations (in decreasing order of importance). Due to the clandestine nature of these migration flows, however, no official statistics exist. Some 200,000 Moldovans are thought to be working in Russia, mainly in construction. Another estimate puts the number of Moldovans in Italy at 200,000. Meanwhile, members of Gagauz minority are drawn predominantly towards Turkey.[1]"

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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Varislintu » 2013-03-26, 13:59

TeneReef wrote:Finland and Sweden have made no restrictions on the flow of workers from Croatia (starting from July 1st when Croatia enters the EU), so I guess people are already planning their ''invasion''. :rotfl:


We'll see how that goes. Usually our climate and high price level deters people. :P Seldom do I hear people expressing a wish to come to Finland specifically (although as a gateway to other EU areas, yes). But I guess now that it's going badly in the old southern West, we might start looking more appealing. :hmm:
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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Levo » 2013-03-27, 12:25

Varislintu wrote:
TeneReef wrote:Finland and Sweden have made no restrictions on the flow of workers from Croatia (starting from July 1st when Croatia enters the EU), so I guess people are already planning their ''invasion''. :rotfl:


We'll see how that goes. Usually our climate and high price level deters people. :P Seldom do I hear people expressing a wish to come to Finland specifically (although as a gateway to other EU areas, yes). But I guess now that it's going badly in the old southern West, we might start looking more appealing. :hmm:


Actually, it is always a big problem for emigrants, at least here, for sure, to collect the money for the initial costs in a Western/Northern/South-Western European country.
The worse is the 2-3 month rent at the beginning, which is equal to the sum of two-three month full wages in Hungary. If you managed to save up for months or years so much with which you can risk starting a new life abroad, you always think twice, wether to spend it on something risky, or buy yourself something that you had been longing for...

Anyway, many friends, as well as I have also been included in thoughts like emigrating and it is very hard if you have no friends to live at at the beginning.

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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Varislintu » 2013-03-27, 13:34

Levo wrote:Actually, it is always a big problem for emigrants, at least here, for sure, to collect the money for the initial costs in a Western/Northern/South-Western European country.
The worse is the 2-3 month rent at the beginning, which is equal to the sum of two-three month full wages in Hungary. If you managed to save up for months or years so much with which you can risk starting a new life abroad, you always think twice, wether to spend it on something risky, or buy yourself something that you had been longing for...

Anyway, many friends, as well as I have also been included in thoughts like emigrating and it is very hard if you have no friends to live at at the beginning.


Yes, and to find a place to rent before you are steadily employed must be extremely difficult. Landlords want proof of a steady income. You become very vulnerable to entering the grey areas of society in that kind of situation.
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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby TeneReef » 2013-03-27, 14:57

Varislintu wrote:
TeneReef wrote:Finland and Sweden have made no restrictions on the flow of workers from Croatia (starting from July 1st when Croatia enters the EU), so I guess people are already planning their ''invasion''. :rotfl:


We'll see how that goes. Usually our climate and high price level deters people. :P Seldom do I hear people expressing a wish to come to Finland specifically (although as a gateway to other EU areas, yes). But I guess now that it's going badly in the old southern West, we might start looking more appealing. :hmm:


I would emigrate to Norway or Findland because of linguistic reasons, I like these languages. :mrgreen:
Even anatomy sounds cute in Finnish: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aivoverkosto

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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Lietmotiv » 2013-03-27, 17:28

I don't know about Finland, but Sweden is full of immigrants.

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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Varislintu » 2013-03-28, 10:55

AndreiB wrote:I don't know about Finland, but Sweden is full of immigrants.


The situations are very different. Wikipedia:

As of 2010 however, 1.33 million people or 14.3% of the inhabitants in Sweden were foreign-born. Of these, 859,000 (9.2%) were born outside the European Union and 477,000 (5.1%) were born in another EU member state


As of 2011, there are 140,000 foreign born people residing in Finland, which corresponds to 2.7% of the population


I think usually Finland slips peoples minds. It's considered a kind of colder, more hostile, less developed country than Sweden, if people even know it exists. We didn't even get our first Romanian beggars until what, five years ago? :P I can just imagine them sitting around a map in Romania, scanning EU countries and then one of them goes, "Hey wait, what is this god-forsaken looking area here next to Sweden? Is it part of Russia? No? It's EU?? Let's start our operations there, too!" :P

But yeah, things they are a-changing for Finland, too.
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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Lietmotiv » 2013-03-28, 12:46

Varislintu wrote:I think usually Finland slips peoples minds. It's considered a kind of colder, more hostile, less developed country than Sweden, if people even know it exists. We didn't even get our first Romanian beggars until what, five years ago? :P I can just imagine them sitting around a map in Romania, scanning EU countries and then one of them goes, "Hey wait, what is this god-forsaken looking area here next to Sweden? Is it part of Russia? No? It's EU?? Let's start our operations there, too!" :P

But yeah, things they are a-changing for Finland, too.


Is this a bad thing? I mean, why do you need Romanian beggars anyway?
I believe the other "European markets" are already full, so Romanian beggars found new, "virgin" territories.

My cousin, who lives in Germany, stared to appreciate that back home there is a very small number of immigrants.

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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Johanna » 2013-03-28, 15:04

AndreiB wrote:I believe the other "European markets" are already full, so Romanian beggars found new, "virgin" territories.

A newspaper did a series of articles about beggars in Stockholm, and what they found was that a lot, maybe even most, of the beggars didn't come here to beg but to look for work, but there's much less work than those people anticipated, and they turn to begging while hoping to get a job later rather than go home since the trip isn't exactly free.

Among those that explicitly came here to beg, they said that there are many rumours that you can earn quite a lot of money here that way too, by their standards anyway, if not as much as by working, and apparently many of them are poor enough to actually make more here that way than being unemployed back home, although it's nowhere near the amount they thought they would. For example, one man they talked to managed to send money home while making on average 30 kr (€4) a day and that combined with the little money his wife could make at home kept his children from starving... Granted, he usually got food from people passing by too, mostly leftovers, and he lived for free in a trailer parked illegally in the forest somewhere, but as a comparison I live on social security, something that's calculated to just cover your basic needs in this society, and get about 130 SEK (€16) a day on top of getting my rent (including heat and water), electricity, insurance, dental and medical bills paid, and I can apply for extra money if there's something bigger I really need.
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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Levo » 2013-03-28, 18:58

Johanna wrote:... but as a comparison I live on social security, something that's calculated to just cover your basic needs in this society, and get about 130 SEK (€16) a day on top of getting my rent (including heat and water), electricity, insurance, dental and medical bills paid, and I can apply for extra money if there's something bigger I really need.

Oh my God, it sounds like a dream-society! It's much more a full-time worker can afford over here.

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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Levo » 2013-03-28, 19:06

AndreiB wrote:
My cousin, who lives in Germany, stared to appreciate that back home there is a very small number of immigrants.


You know Andrei, you're saying something very interesting with this...
(And you know, I met a bunch of Moldovan tourists-teenagers on their school-trip in Budapest!)

So, Vienna vs. Budapest.
When I'm over there, I realize, everything is so much more calm, automatized. People seem to be more relaxed, things are tidy and in order... At the same time, when you see some immigrants from very distant countries, they really break this "harmony", with loud shouts, very different behaviour and cultural background. And there's a lot of that.
It's true my travel-companion said, he wouldn't like to live in Vienna, no matter how much more comfortable it is than Budapest. I had the same thought. Interesting...

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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Johanna » 2013-03-28, 20:03

Levo wrote:
Johanna wrote:... but as a comparison I live on social security, something that's calculated to just cover your basic needs in this society, and get about 130 SEK (€16) a day on top of getting my rent (including heat and water), electricity, insurance, dental and medical bills paid, and I can apply for extra money if there's something bigger I really need.

Oh my God, it sounds like a dream-society! It's much more a full-time worker can afford over here.

I don't have much trouble keeping within budget, but it's because I buy less than I'm "supposed" to, like the fact that most of my clothes are more than 5 years old, and what isn't, except for socks and knickers, I got from my sister or mother because they didn't fit them any more but they fit me. And that I only use 2 ordinary bras and two sport ones since I gained some weight and most of the ones I have are too small (still keep them in case I lose that weight again though, so that I won't have to buy new ones).

Or that I have actually only bought two pieces of furniture in my entire flat, that I don't own a TV, and that I won't start paying the TV fee for my internet connection until they ask me to (yeah, we have to pay for that now too, not just an actual TV, but if you get caught you just have to start paying from that date, nothing retroactively and no charges), and that I now have an activity 3 days a week (to help me recover from my depression) where I can eat breakfast or dinner so that means some less money spent on food.

And I don't have any mortgage or other debts (those aren't covered, so if you have any of those you're definitely in the shit if you're on social security), which also helps a lot.

By the way, how much does the average Hungarian spend on food for a week?
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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Sol Invictus » 2013-03-28, 23:06

Varislintu wrote:I think usually Finland slips peoples minds. It's considered a kind of colder, more hostile, less developed country than Sweden, if people even know it exists. We didn't even get our first Romanian beggars until what, five years ago? :P I can just imagine them sitting around a map in Romania, scanning EU countries and then one of them goes, "Hey wait, what is this god-forsaken looking area here next to Sweden? Is it part of Russia? No? It's EU?? Let's start our operations there, too!" :P

For us, at least, I think the place translates as linguistically inappropriate and not in Scandinavia

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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby TeneReef » 2013-03-29, 1:13

Johanna wrote:By the way, how much does the average Hungarian spend on food for a week?


The average Croatian spends 1800 kunas which is something like 1800 NOK / 2000 SEK, for a month.
Basic supplies for a 4 member family cost more than the average salary. People work for food and rent/bills.
Many people can't go to the beach, although Croatia has a popular seaside. :roll: But people can't travel because there is no money left. :hmm: The food is expensive because 90% of it is imported, and German food (sold in Lidl, Kaufland, Interspar) costs less than the Croatian-produced food (which makes it even more difficult for Croatian economy to survive, since although people like Croatian products, they cannot compete with massively produced cheaper German products). :cry: I can see why Norway put high taxes on imported food (to protect their economy).
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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Lietmotiv » 2013-03-29, 8:55

Levo wrote:
AndreiB wrote:
My cousin, who lives in Germany, stared to appreciate that back home there is a very small number of immigrants.


You know Andrei, you're saying something very interesting with this...
(And you know, I met a bunch of Moldovan tourists-teenagers on their school-trip in Budapest!)


You mean that the Moldovan tourists-teenagers have a different opinion? I don't know about that.
Personally, I wouldn't have anything against immigration in my country (of course, due to the economical and and political situation in the country, we have no immigration of all), especially when it comes to people from Europe, who share the same values and so on. That's one of the reasons why I don't understand why countries like UK limited the number of Bulgarian an Romanian immigrants, but continue to receive immigration from Africa, Asia and so on.

So, Vienna vs. Budapest.
When I'm over there, I realize, everything is so much more calm, automatized. People seem to be more relaxed, things are tidy and in order... At the same time, when you see some immigrants from very distant countries, they really break this "harmony", with loud shouts, very different behaviour and cultural background. And there's a lot of that.
It's true my travel-companion said, he wouldn't like to live in Vienna, no matter how much more comfortable it is than Budapest. I had the same thought. Interesting...


It's the same thing for me, I mean in Germany I would earn up to 2-3 times more than here, but I wouldn't change my city for that - well, in my case thank God I'm not complaining, we're talking about a salary which affords me to live quite ok, drive a car, have dinner in restaurant once/twice a week and even spend a week-end abroad once 2 months - of course I am still far from buying a Porche, but that's not my goal in this life.
Most of those who left our country are people who really have no job or have a salary of maximum 200 $, and except for cigarettes and alcohol, life in Kishinev isn't cheaper than in let's say, Vienna (food, real estate, everything). And when a young doctor here gets 200 $/month when he can easlily get at least 5000 eur in France, he will leave the country.
That's why those poor but not only poor people continue to leave Moldova. From example, from 30 classmates of me, only 12 are still living in the country, the rest of them are in France, Germany, Russia, Israel and so on.

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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Saim » 2013-03-29, 14:23

AndreiB wrote:especially when it comes to people from Europe, who share the same values and so on. That's one of the reasons why I don't understand why countries like UK limited the number of Bulgarian an Romanian immigrants, but continue to receive immigration from Africa, Asia and so on.

Because they don't see you as sharing the same values, they see you as dirty easterners and continentals. Most of them hardly see themself as sharing a common identity with the French, let alone the Romanians.

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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Tenebrarum » 2013-03-29, 17:03

AndreiB wrote:from 30 classmates of me, only 12 are still living in the country, the rest of them are in France, Germany, Russia, Israel and so on.

This reminds me that more than half of my highschool classmates have migrated to the US, Canada and Australia. :lol: Yeah so I'm aware that, almost down to the last person, they could only do so by having family members who have already settled abroad - but I can't help feeling like a failure for not able to do the same. I have this guy who was kinda-sorta bestie with me back then, and he got a new life in America thanks to his sister. He then berated me for not 'trying hard enough' to stay in Australia :? , so I unfriended him on Facebook and never talked to him again. The asshat.
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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby TeneReef » 2013-03-30, 19:12

Will Slovenia Be the Next Victim of German Politics?
Read more at http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/03/ ... t1VzBlL.99
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Re: "West, West, West!" in Eastern and Central Europe

Postby Levo » 2013-04-02, 11:45

Johanna wrote:
Levo wrote:
Johanna wrote:... but as a comparison I live on social security, something that's calculated to just cover your basic needs in this society, and get about 130 SEK (€16) a day on top of getting my rent (including heat and water), electricity, insurance, dental and medical bills paid, and I can apply for extra money if there's something bigger I really need.

Oh my God, it sounds like a dream-society! It's much more a full-time worker can afford over here.

I don't have much trouble keeping within budget, but it's because I buy less than I'm "supposed" to, like the fact that most of my clothes are more than 5 years old, and what isn't, except for socks and knickers, I got from my sister or mother because they didn't fit them any more but they fit me. And that I only use 2 ordinary bras and two sport ones since I gained some weight and most of the ones I have are too small (still keep them in case I lose that weight again though, so that I won't have to buy new ones).

Or that I have actually only bought two pieces of furniture in my entire flat, that I don't own a TV, and that I won't start paying the TV fee for my internet connection until they ask me to (yeah, we have to pay for that now too, not just an actual TV, but if you get caught you just have to start paying from that date, nothing retroactively and no charges), and that I now have an activity 3 days a week (to help me recover from my depression) where I can eat breakfast or dinner so that means some less money spent on food.

And I don't have any mortgage or other debts (those aren't covered, so if you have any of those you're definitely in the shit if you're on social security), which also helps a lot.


Very thorough description.
Just a note, it is really not so much different from how we live here.
Johanna wrote:By the way, how much does the average Hungarian spend on food for a week?

Very good question. I don't know. Food is something that differs from household to household.
Though experts say the need for quality food has increased visibly in Hungary in the last years, many people still tend to buy simply always the cheapest possible food. When I was a student living on really low money, I did that too.
If you live alone, this “cheapest” solution can come out of 45 000 HUF (around 150€) per month.
If you live two or more and someone is doing the cooking also, the per person amount is self-evidently less. Note that it is pretty common to have families, like my cousins’, who lived on less than 700€ a month altogether (I mean the total income) and were four in the family with two children, both parents working. They pretty much represent the average here, I must say. I don’t know how much they spent on food, but if you start counting from the example above you can calculate something…

So, that is the cheapest solution. If you want to eat fruits sometimes, or even buy some nuts, or I say more… eat fish every now and then, this amount can double or triple.
Since some health issues, I need to lead a healthier nutrition than most people follow here. But I realized, doing so, I cannot save money at all at the end of the month just after having spent on better food and paying my bills, so I had to made serious plans how to spend less on food than 72 000 HUF per month (around 240€), because otherwise, I could spend way more on basic food than just that.

The thing is that, here if you get a higher salary/income, you can always expand your sober and meaningful consumption till you reach 100% of your total income.


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