Petition for SRS and HRT to be part of health care

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linguoboy
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Re: Petition for SRS and HRT to be part of health care

Postby linguoboy » 2012-11-16, 19:46

Yasna wrote:Do you know of any statistics on the depression or suicide rate of transgender people post-sex reassignment procedures?

According to this British study, it's about 1.9%. (The overall suicide rate for the UK is 1.1%, slightly lower than the USA's.)

Yasna wrote:It's plausible that the high suicide rate could be mostly due to society's treatment of transgenders, rather than the effects of the disorder itself on a person's health.

It's more than plausible, it's pratically a certainty. Rates in places like the Netherlands, where hormone therapy is available to adolescents, are comparable to those of the general populace.

But given how hard it is to change societal attitudes, that's not necessarily an argument against covering the procedure. The fact still remains that fewer transgendered persons will end up dead if the procedure is covered than if it isn't.
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ILuvEire
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Re: Petition for SRS and HRT to be part of health care

Postby ILuvEire » 2012-11-17, 7:20

linguoboy wrote:But given how hard it is to change societal attitudes, that's not necessarily an argument against covering the procedure. The fact still remains that fewer transgendered persons will end up dead if the procedure is covered than if it isn't.
Right, this is the line of thought for me. Once you're presented with the statistics that you've provided, Linguoboy, I don't really think that there's any way to come up with a reasonable argument against it.

(I signed the petition.)
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Hoogstwaarschijnlijk
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Re: Petition for SRS and HRT to be part of health care

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2012-11-19, 20:11

linguoboy wrote:But given how hard it is to change societal attitudes, that's not necessarily an argument against covering the procedure. The fact still remains that fewer transgendered persons will end up dead if the procedure is covered than if it isn't.


Even when your society would totally accept transgenders the way there are (which doesn't happen anywhere, I think), (some) transgenders would still need this procedure. It's not the same as being gay or wanting bigger breasts (john's example...), I think the physological damage can be nearly non-existent when would be totally okay with people who are gay or people who have small breasts, but a transgender would still be in the wrong body. There's no society needed to feel bad about that, although of course the way society sees man/woman does influence the way transgenders feel (Judith Butler....)*

I think it's really good by the way that in the Netherlands adolescents can start with this procedure, it makes things easier for them later on. I've seen several documentaries about it. Of course not everyone can be helped this way- not everyone knows if he/she wants to do this procedure and not everyone knows that he/she is a transgender at a young age. And yes, it's expensive, but lots of medical treatments are expensive. I think they should be available for everyone though. I'll sign the petition at another moment.

*I wanted to make 'Judith Butler' into this link, but I don't know how to do that so I'll just put the link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Trouble
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linguoboy
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Re: Petition for SRS and HRT to be part of health care

Postby linguoboy » 2012-11-19, 21:19

ILuvEire wrote:
linguoboy wrote:But given how hard it is to change societal attitudes, that's not necessarily an argument against covering the procedure. The fact still remains that fewer transgendered persons will end up dead if the procedure is covered than if it isn't.
Right, this is the line of thought for me. Once you're presented with the statistics that you've provided, Linguoboy, I don't really think that there's any way to come up with a reasonable argument against it.

Sure there is: For starters, the statistics aren't scientific. The estimated prevalance of GID is about 1 in 30,000 for men, 1 in 100,000 for women, so in order to end up with a statistically valid sample of 6,450 transgender respondents (as reported in the NTDS report), you would have to have asked every adult in North America to participate. Obviously, they are using non-scientific methods (according to the report, most of the replies came from an online survey) as well a much broader definition of "transgender" than just "diagnosed with GID". On top of all that, it's a survey, so all the data is self-reported. This makes it very difficult to compare those results with the results of more targeted studies, like the UK one I mentioned, which was conducted on a different population in a different country.

Second, if higher suicide rates of attempted suicide are an argument for increasing coverage, then there may be other at-risk groups which should be covered first. Substance abusers attempt suicide at about three times the rate of the general populace and make up about a quarter of all successful suicides. The cost of an effective treatment programme runs about $1200-1500 whereas the average cost of SRS is about $13,000-18,000. So, at a rough first approximation, you could save at least ten suicidal substance abusers for the cost of saving one suicidal transgender person.

Third: It's not an all-or-nothing proposal. There may be remedies short of comprehensive SRS (such as counseling and hormone therapy) which produce many of the same benefits at much less cost. We don't have a robust comparison to work from. Optimally, you'd want a series of methodologically sound clinical studies which would compare the results of various remedies. But good luck getting the funding to do that!

Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:Even when your society would totally accept transgenders the way there are (which doesn't happen anywhere, I think), (some) transgenders would still need this procedure. It's not the same as being gay or wanting bigger breasts (john's example...), I think the physological damage can be nearly non-existent when would be totally okay with people who are gay or people who have small breasts, but a transgender would still be in the wrong body.

I think it begs an important question to say that they are in the "wrong body". Such feelings are not unique to transgender people, after all. Western society strongly enforces a strict gender binarism onto the range of realisations which occur in nature. Born intersexuals know how little tolerance there is for non-conforming bodies, and this intolerance constitutes a strong incentive for those born without the dominant form of gender-identification to take an either-or approach when they might actually be more comfortable with something in-between.
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Hoogstwaarschijnlijk
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Re: Petition for SRS and HRT to be part of health care

Postby Hoogstwaarschijnlijk » 2012-11-20, 9:58

linguoboy wrote:
Hoogstwaarschijnlijk wrote:Even when your society would totally accept transgenders the way there are (which doesn't happen anywhere, I think), (some) transgenders would still need this procedure. It's not the same as being gay or wanting bigger breasts (john's example...), I think the physological damage can be nearly non-existent when would be totally okay with people who are gay or people who have small breasts, but a transgender would still be in the wrong body.

I think it begs an important question to say that they are in the "wrong body". Such feelings are not unique to transgender people, after all. Western society strongly enforces a strict gender binarism onto the range of realisations which occur in nature. Born intersexuals know how little tolerance there is for non-conforming bodies, and this intolerance constitutes a strong incentive for those born without the dominant form of gender-identification to take an either-or approach when they might actually be more comfortable with something in-between.

Yes, you're totally right. Still it's a common expression to say as a transgender that you've been born in the wrong body and as that's the way they're often experiencing it (I'm basing this on the documenteries I have seen and the articles and books I have read about it)...
It's quite... well, funny is not the exact right word, but still, that transgenders often think more binary than some other people. I mean, my favourite hair dresser was the most feminine woman I have ever met, but then I read this book about a transgender and it turned out to be about her (yeah, that was a very weird experience :lol: ). It's like they want to become as feminine as possible, just to show the world how they aren't actually a man, or something. I don't know if it works the other way round actually. (When I look at myself, I'd say: no. But it's all a bit complex... When I think of the documentaries I have seen, I'd say: maybe. They do seem to like football quite often...). I guess it's more accepted for girls to like 'boy's stuff' than the other way round.

Eeeh okay, actually I just wanted to say that I agree with you there.
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